PIPE / TUBE

[pockets]

Is there any such thing as 11" od pipe or tube? I know that pipe is measured on the id and tube is measured on the od. A 36" boiler, in 3-3/4" scale measures 11-1/4".

Should I go with 10" sch. 40, giving me 10-3/4" dia.? Opinions, please. As some of you are bored with hearing, this is for the Mt. Gretna 4-4-0.

I'm trying, desperately, to be ready to go to metal as soon as the reocation is completed. Looks like sometime around the holidays.

Greg B.

[Bill Shields]

10" pipe will be 10-3/4" OD..Add some insulation and sheet metal cover and you are right there, no sweat.

Anything else would be a headache, unless you want to go to 12"...

But then...WHO is ever going to take a tape measure to a boiler and waggle (wiggle?) their finger at you?


[This message has been edited by Bill Shields (edited 12-07-2006).]

[srrl5]

The boiler jacket and smoke box on the full size loco were 37 1/4" divided by 3.2 comes up with 11.64. I was given a piece of 12" pipe, 12 3/4" OD. The smoke box and boiler are one piece on my loco, so I have no insulation only jacketing in the boiler area. I left the center line of the boiler at scale hight so the top is a little higher, bottom a little lower. No one yet has waggle (wiggle?) their finger at me. Although the person who gave me the 12" pipe did try and claim part ownership in my loco.

David

[Bill Shields]

I guess, accordingly then, that the Mid-Eastern Oil company that 'donated' the piece of oil-well casing that I am using could claim part of my present project?

HA!

Let 'em come and get it....

[pockets]

Okay, here we go with dumb question #397....When the worthy scribes that documented the prototypes of our treasures (Farrel, Armitage, et al)called out a boiler diameter, were they describing the actual boiler or were they measuring over the jacket? On my project I'm working from M.H.Farrel's description.

Explanation time: I tried to communicate this to David and feel that I did a poor job of it. I'm every politician's worst nightmare; I'm an independant. I'm most live steamer's PITA, because I fall into that much malinged category of RIVET COUNTER. I'm striving for as much visible accuracy as possible, ergo the thread about cylinder detail. I suffer the handicap of coming up from the smaller scales where it was a constant struggle for more and more accurate detail.

There are exceptions, many fine ones, but the large scale railroading that I have been exposed to is, in my opinion, Tinplate writ large. This is NOT wrong. It is just not the approach that I choose to follow. You guys would have had a real hoot, if you had been in my shop the day that I discovered that a rabbet joint in my flat car frame was supposed to be mortise and tenon. I came a little unstuck.


I appreciate and enjoy fine work wherever I find it and steaming bays abound with it.

The day may not be far off when the only representatives of steam railroading will be our models. We owe it to posterity to be as accurate as possible. If you build for fun and enjoyment, that's one thing. If you are building a specific prototype and intend to tout it as such, do your level best to make it accurate. You don't find many roller bearings in 19th century railroading. In 1-1/2" and larger scales there is almost nothing that can't be replicated, usually in a working fashion, given the correct information.

I hope I have not offended or squashed any toes. All I have done is attempt to state my position.

Greg B.

[This message has been edited by pockets (edited 12-07-2006).]

[Bill Shields]

Depends on the designer...most measured the outside, some....the inside.

Usually, it was the outside of the pressure shell because that is what everyone else had to work to as the hung the rest of the 'junk' on...

Not that it made much difference...the guys building the boiler made things fit either way.

Remember Mathias Baldwin's motto regarding his early locos.

"If repairs are needed, please return to builder because NTA." (no two alike)....

He was one of the major proponents of standardization...out of necessity.

Remember...the early loco builders were little more than high-tech (for their day) blacksmiths, if that good.

Heck, even I can duplicate what they did in a few weeks, given $40,000 worth of machinery, 30 years of practice as a mechanical engineer and 20 years of building time....

And SO CAN YOU...just send $19.99 and a SASE to the following address.....

[emccamey]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bill Shields:
. . . &lt;snip&gt; . . .
And SO CAN YOU...just send $19.99 and a SASE to the following address.....</font>

If $ 19.99 will get us the wit and wisdom of Bill Shields, then we're paying too much for the wit and getting a lot of wisdom at a bargain! Seriously, if the design, construction, and methods of your current project were folded into a publication with all the quirky rationalizations already posted - I would think it would sell, and sell well, at a much higher price.

-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR

[Bill Shields]

wit is cheap...just don't take yourself too seriously.

wisdom?

I will let you know when I have found enough to write about....

Just try'in to stay alive...

[GWRdriver]

&gt;&gt;We owe it to posterity to be as accurate as possible.

Greg,
You are the only other person, besides myself, I have ever heard say this. I think it is EXTREMELY important for us to portray things acurately as nearly as we are capable of, if for no other reason than posterity. If we don't there might be a future generation that thinks all steam locomotives looked like Thomas the Tank Engine, or worse, a Cagney. I have no problem with rivet-counting . . . . IMHO there has been an epidemic of NON-rivet-counting in US live steam, although I'll have to admit that seems to be turning a corner and there are more highly faithful locos being designed and built these days than I can remember (and I suffered through the awful Everything-is-Little-Engines years)

EM-
Bill has a lot of wisdom and experience. He also has a lot of opinions and you know what they say about opinions . . . :-) But what I would say to you is that no one person has all the answers and is the last word on everything, . . . not LBSC, not Joe Nelson, not Kozo, not Bill, not me, not anyone. The best way to go will be found by taking the most logical and applicable information from as many sources and people as you can find and using what best suits your needs and ability and equipment. Some will be wheat, and some will be chaff but eventually you will build your own personal vocabulary and set of practices and then you'll probably be asked "How would you do it?" and you'll have an answer . . . ummm, an opinion.


[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 12-07-2006).]

[Bill Shields]

GOOD GRIEF!

Don't use my name and Kozo's in the same sentence, let alone the same post..not fair to him!

The only problem that I have with many rivet counters is that they are just that - rivet counters...all they can do it copy and not innovate or think a problem through.

If someone doesn't provide them a drawing of how to do it, they cannot figure it out for themselves...yet they have the audacity to come to a club and criticize the width and depth of the fluting on the side-rods of a nice loco...or the position of the placement of a handrail.

It's guys like this that cause people like me to free lance and others to not bother building at all because of the peer pressure and criticism.

The idea of this hobby is to have fun, get out and make steam or other combustion by-products while running on rails.

Anyone that puts his (or her) mind to it can build a loco with little more than a drill press and a lathe and have a blast doing it. So what if it doesn't look like anything ever built before...or does it?

Jim, who has been with steam railroading (big and small) since the 1930's says that there are very few truly ORIGINAL ideas involving steam power. Some are better than others...and we probably have seen the better ones....the not-so-good have been lost because of one reason or another. He is building (with my help) a VERY DETAILED B&M Atlantic, of which he is very justifiably proud..but truth be known...he has more fun than a barrel full of monkeys coming up with stuff the works and is different for the Tom Thumb project that causes everyone to stop and scratch their head, wondering where it came from, how (and why) it works....and where we found the drawings to build it (brain-storming mostly).

That's what we like about this hobby...being able to say that it's our work and in many cases...our ideas..and hopefully it looks like a loco along the way.

[emccamey]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GWRdriver:
&gt;&gt;. . . &lt;snip&gt; . . .
EM- Bill has a lot of wisdom and experience. He also has a lot of opinions and you know what they say about opinions . . . :-) But what I would say to you is that no one person has all the answers and is the last word on everything, . . . &lt;snip&gt; . . .
[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 12-07-2006).]</font>

Rest assured that I don’t give Bill any more credence than I give to other builders who share what they know and experience. I get a lot of knowledge at the tracks from some very gifted builders and operators. What I was giving credence to was that in today’s industrial world, there are few who document and share so much of the trials and tribulations as has Bill done on this project, and we are all thankful for that (little bit) of wisdom. (There Bill, I acknowledge it’s not all that much http://bbs.livesteam.net//biggrin.gif ). We don’t have a lot of examples of designing and constructing steam machines to draw upon except within the hobby and fraternity of these little live steamers.

I’m relatively new to the live steam side of modeling. My main construction to this point is having disassembled an old mechanical scratch built FA1, and converted it to electric operation with a golf cart motor, controller, and miscellany of other self designed mechanical and electrical interfaces. I’ve gotten a full set of castings only and the plans for an Allen mogul that’s in the very rough initial stages of construction and I’ll have to scratch build a lot and scrounge materials to complete it.

But as several do know, I have over 45 years in modeling with the small electric models and I’ve become somewhat of an icon (an image, picture, or representation; a sign or likeness that stands for an object by signifying or representing it – NOT AN EXPERT) with true prototypical scaling in my Proto:87 endeavor keeping to 0.0005” tolerance and having operational HO engines with only 0.012” flanges. I’ve learned about chassis equalization the very hard way (and in the scale of 1:87.1 it can be very daunting indeed). I’m the NMRA PROTO and FINE standards coordinator on the Standards and Conformance department.

Live steam is a growing attachment to my life long engagement with model railroads.

-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR

[GWRdriver]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">there are few who document and share so much of the trials and tribulations as has Bill done on this project,</font>

Ed
With the www it can now happen instantly (or seemingly so) right on our desktops. My model engineering experience has been nothing short of transformed beyond description over the last ten years or so by the communications allowed by the www. The amount of information available simply boggles the mind.

I will be following Bill in the coming months with more progress on my locomotive project, as time allows. It's a different animal than Bill's, but vive le differance.

[emccamey]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by GWRdriver:
. . . &lt;snip&gt; . . .
I will be following Bill in the coming months with more progress on my locomotive project
. . . &lt;snip&gt; . . .
</font>

Looking forward to that. I'll post my progress on the mogul (mundane as that may be) as well.
-ed mccamey-
COSLAR RR

[pockets]

Gents,
The only wrong way to persue this hobby is unsafely.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with free lancing. Some of the foundations of the Hobbie are free lance; the Clishay, the Newbie and others,but and this is critical, they don't claim to be what they're not.

Bill, I know that I hide it well, but my mother raised me with some tact and decorum. Even if I am intimately familiar with the prototype, I am not going to stand in a steaming bay and criticize anyone's efforts. I'm just not made that way. Now, if someone shows up with a Nickle Plate Berkshire, having Pere Marquette on the tank, I won't say a word....I may bite my tongue 'til it bleeds, but I won't say a word.

Ed and Harry, I've been scratchbuilding for 35 years. Ed, I've been around long enough to have dined with Gene Hickey at Steel Trails '74. I tend to gravitate to the narrow gauge end of whatever scale I'm working in. If, for some reason, I was forced back inside I would probably return to scale O. Also a true builder's scale.

I'll leave the matter of Bill's wit and wisdom alone. He is, after all, a trained engineer and allowances must be made. I would never ridicule someone operating under such a handicap.... http://bbs.livesteam.net//biggrin.gif

Greg B.

[This message has been edited by pockets (edited 12-07-2006).]

[srrl5]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pockets:


Explanation time: I tried to communicate this to David and feel that I did a poor job of it. I'm every politician's worst nightmare; I'm an independant. I'm most live steamer's PITA, because I fall into that much malinged category of RIVET COUNTER. I'm striving for as much visible accuracy as possible, ergo the thread about cylinder detail. I suffer the handicap of coming up from the smaller scales where it was a constant struggle for more and more accurate detail.

Greg B.

[This message has been edited by pockets (edited 12-07-2006).]</font>

Greg,

Once you start building you will not "fall into that much malinged category of RIVET COUNTER" Because most of the obnoxious rivet counters have not built anything, which is what makes them obnoxious. They only complain about what someone else has done.

[GWRdriver]

A tickle . . . .
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/gwrdriver/THR-8.jpg

[pockets]

Nice, Harry. Any chance of getting a teapot? http://bbs.livesteam.net//biggrin.gif

Greg B.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

We all have different incentives and purposes for our hobby. I'm totally in agreement with Bill and pockets, i.e.: keep it fun, and keep it safe!

The "rivet counters" who eventually DO finish a loco build it over 15, 30, or even 50 years - they're having fun in their own way, which is nothing to belittle.

But for me, "fun" is trying out new ideas and solutions while building (you know, the only drawings I have are the original works drawings, and I don't follow them - "ad-lib" is my way), and of course, running the locos!

To get a loco finished quickly, you never have the time to count the rivets... But, oh what fun to take some drawings from 1914, mangle them through a CAD program, watching the pieces being laser-cut...

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~animato/3003/IMG_6815.JPG

... and trying out the still unfinished loco on steam the first time just seven months later:

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~animato/3003/IMG_7920.JPG

(You'll note that the metal in my boiler looks nothing like that tickly jewel by GWR...)

This is a GREAT hobby, in whatever way you pursue it!

Greetings,
J-E

[Victor Smagovic]

J-E, I do not know anyone whom could say it better. Absolutely agree! I think everybody should choose his/hers own path to happines and build what they feel is the best way for satisfying their cravings.
I have read some article/book(?) recently from the UK, and the author stated that many of those award winning locos never seen an outside rail. And were never fired. But,in my opinion that is good too. There is a room for everyone! Maybe even for me.
If Baldwin would be still building locos today, he would do it differently too. They were improving things every day then too. It is called inovations. Some people like to live in the past, some in the future. Vic

[GWRdriver]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You'll note that the metal in my boiler looks nothing like that tickly jewel by GWR...
J-E</font>
But in due time it will go under the torch again and be scorched black. Such is life for copper boiler parts. http://bbs.livesteam.net//rolleyes.gif

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I have read some article/book(?) recently from the UK, and the author stated that many of those award winning locos never seen an outside rail. And were never fired.</font>
This is an example of prejudice and sour grapes that persists against 'rivet-counters' of which there are many in the UK. The reality is that these models fall into every category. There are some, like those of Cherry Hill/Hinds which certainly run but will never be steamed, and then there are those like Bill Carter's gold-medal winning Atlantic which was steamed on a regular basis during his lifetime, and then there is the gold-medal winning loco (a GNR Stirling Single IIRC) which also won the IMLEC (International Model Locomotive Efficiency Competition) a few years ago. So this should have put a end to naysaying and claims (and there are many) in the UK that "It's pretty, but it won't run." That story doesn't fly any more.

I grew up in a club environment where there was a lot of criticism of other people's choices by a few "controllers", and it's a miracle I'm still here. I have seen FAR more criticism of rivet-counters from non-rivet-counters than the other way around. I think this rivet-couter vs practical built argument is senseless. I really do. As was said above, just do whatever makes you happy and don't pay any attention to what someone else says you "ought" to do.


[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 12-08-2006).]

[watt-steam]

As always, beautiful work by GWR and JE.

For your 11" tube, one option would be to contact a tank shop and ask them to roll you one. Or, get a 12 or 14 inch OD one from say a gas company, slit it taking a slice out to briong it to 11 " OD, pinch it closed, and weld it back together yourself. To pinch it, you could weld on temporarily a couple of lugs for some large bolts (like a big hose clamp) and while heating it, tighten the bolts.

There are several large tank makers in USA - hope there is one near you. This may cost a bit, but if you are nice to them, tell them what you're doing, and let them fit it in theor schedule in a spare hour (a good friday job), you may be surprised at how little it may cost.

[GWRdriver]

Thanks for the kind words Watt . . . my problem is that proff duties prevent me getting into the workshop these days but I'll be getting back to it soon.

Back to the orginal thread . . . Sorry for aiding and abetting a hi-jack of the thread Pockets but by now you know that's the way it is here. I have to agree with Bill that all things considered a 10" tube solves the basic problems with the least effort.

[Unka Jesse]

The boilers on my RRSC American and Filer and Stowell were originallyt 6" steel pipe. I removed a strip 1-1/2" or so wide from the pipes at the original butt weld, beveled the edges and then used a 20 ton press to make the pipe back round so I could TIG weld it inside and out before machining to "perfect" roundness. Yes, both boilers were tested to 400PSI with no leakage and nothing burst. Brad Smith left his F&S copy boiler at its original 6" ID pipe and I now wish I had done so with mine. He gained a bit of boiler capacity that way and possibly had room for a couple of extra flues, yet the slightly over scale boiler is not noticable even to rivet counters.

Unka not a rivet counter Jesse