WHAT GAUGE?

[Bill Shields]

Can I get a survey of what gauge you guys are running...and how popular that specific gauge is at any club that you may frequent..and the club name / location?

Just an informal survey. Yes, Alan, I know that 3/4" is still popular it the UK.

Trivia question (I am full of them)..

The USA is splint into two groups - 7-1/4 and 7-1/2 gauge track...with the 7-1/4 being primarily Mid-Atlantic states and north into New England.

For $64,000 (payable as an IOU), how did this happen? I am looking for the name of the person that is genrally attributed with being the force behind this difference. He is long gone, and I am not going to say anything bad about him...but when Live Steam was growing, he is the person that went around the country, telling other live steamers interested in this new 1-1/2" scale that 7-1/4 or 7-1/2, doesn't make any difference....didn't think people would ever travel outside of their home 'villages'.

I know that this is true, because I have fellow living with me who knew the individual personally, admitted to having done it and regretted it...so...who was that man?

It is really a mess here in Delaware...we are caught right in the middle...MD, VA and south are generally 7-1/2, PA, NJ and north are all 7-1/4...so when you build an engine, you better know where you want to run...

[Unka Jesse]

Bill I get blamed for a lot of things, but I did NOT have anything to do with the mess up with gauges! http://bbs.livesteam.net//smile.gif

I run only 7-1/2" gauge equipment at the Mid-South LS track in Columbia, TN where we have 14,000 feet of track in Maury County park.

Unka Jesse

[This message has been edited by Unka Jesse (edited 11-08-2005).]

[pockets]

Bill, If memory serves (and it sometimes doesn't) there was an article in an early L/S or Modeltec that went into this. Seems a gent from Chicago wanted to build a scale railroad. He contacted a fellow modeller, in Michigan.(I want to say Wilbur Shaw, but I can't put my hands on the issue, to verify it.) Wilbur (for the sake of continuity) who built to 7-1/4", when querried about gauge, inadvertantly rattled off 7-1/2".

Best regards,
Greg B.

Correction: The name is Horace Shaw. My apologies for the mix-up.

[This message has been edited by pockets (edited 11-08-2005).]

[This message has been edited by pockets (edited 11-09-2005).]

[timz1999]

Bill
I dont know who started it but I have to agree they should be take out and hung! here are the other funy wons 4 3/4 in the USA and 5" gauge across the pond. also if you would like to check out my rr club we run an oddball scale and gauge 2 inch scale 9 9/16 gague! the Centerville & Southwestern. http://www.prrh.org/

[Bill Cody]

I don't know what all the controversy is. I travel to various tracks but only where the guage is 7.5" and there is no state boiler inspection required. I don't even consider the other states or tracks that are not 7.5" gauge. There are more than enough places to run without being concerned with the "other" 1.5/1.6 scale tracks. Also, I will not consider running a NG engine, I tend to run fast and they would not be stable enough for me. Bill

[Alan Stepney]

My club has track (raised) for 2.5" /3.5" / 5" / 7.25", plus ground level for 7.25" and 10.25".
In addition it has some track for a couple of the "garden" gauges.

I like ALL of them, and all have advantages and disadvantages.

I have never understood why the US should have two standards. In terms of distance, it may be a large country (heck, yes, it IS a large country!) but as far as numbers of clubs go, they are spread rather thinly and one set of standards would make it easier to visit clubs in different areas.

[GWRdriver]

My memory on this is sketchy (mainly because I don't much care!) but as Pockets mentions an article in a very early LSM explained how the situation probably came about although no explanation is now considered conclusive. There generally have been two explanations.

The urban legend (there's that term again) was that when the first 7+ga club was about to get going on the west coast a couple of key people, who thought highly of themselves and who fancied that they controlled things, decided to go 7-1/2"ga to differentiate themselves from the east coast. It was an ego thing.

The more believable explanation was that when the first 7+ga club was getting going on the west coast one of the key people wrote to a club back east to ask about gauges and standards and there was a typo in the typewritten response which transposed a 2 (as in 1/2") in place of a 4 (as in 1/4") and by the time the mistake was discovered several locos were being built and the decision was made not to change anything.

This is the gist of the explanations as I recall them but some details of this may be incorrectly recalled.

I have projects either in various stages of construction or running in the following gauges: Ga1, 3.5", 5", 7.5".

I have no idea how the 4.75"/5"ga difference came about.



[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 11-09-2005).]

[andypullen]

What's the matter Bill Cody? Afraid of the boiler inspections?

You would never notice the 1/4" difference in track gauge if you were running on it. I've run at NJLS and 7 1/4" gauge track is as solid as 7 1/2" if well built and maintained. You can't really call it "narrow gauge".

Bill Shields,

There are several 7 1/2" gauge tracks in Pennsylvania. I've run on 2 of them.

Andy Pullen

[Papasmurf7597]

The only track that I've ever run on that far north was Iron Acres RR in NJ. Ran for about three days solid Memorial Day weekend of 04. Had no problems at all. I understand
Mike Venesia remachines his frogs to handle the two gauges. Whatever he has done, it must work, because my Atlantic is strictly a 7.5 gauge engine.
Take care,
Bruce

[fred v]

that is what i've heard about dual gauge. if you set the guard rail at the frog just right you can run both guages.
fred v

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Papasmurf7597:
The only track that I've ever run on that far north was Iron Acres RR in NJ. Ran for about three days solid Memorial Day weekend of 04. Had no problems at all. I understand
Mike Venesia remachines his frogs to handle the two gauges. Whatever he has done, it must work, because my Atlantic is strictly a 7.5 gauge engine.
Take care,
Bruce</font>

[Papasmurf7597]

Hey Fred,


Hows life treating you ? What I believe Mike Venesia does, is to mill out the flangeway toward the center of the track, so as to clear the 7.25 wheel flange. But installs the guard rail in the normal place.
And, if I remember right, the guards are sort of longer with a nice gentle arch to them.Again, however he does it, it works.
Take care,
Bruce

[Bill Shields]

OK, so far, nobody has come up with the name of the person.

I didn't want to start a 7-1/4 - 7-1/2 fight. Yes, I know that there are 7-1/2 tracks in PA, but where I run is 7-1/4 (close to home).

The 7-1/2 tracks that I have visited over the years will not run my 7-1/4...and I KNOW that 7-1/2 cannot be run at Pa Live Steamers.

Again, I would like information on what gauges are available at what tracks and a GUESSTIMATE of what the % usage is / gauge.

Example: PA Live Steamers 2-1/2, 3-1/2, 4-3/4, 7-1/4, O-Gauge. In any given run day, 95% of the traffic is 7-1/4 with one or two 4-3/4 and one or two 3-1/2 and 2-3 O gauge.

See, isn't that easy?..

Still looking for a name of the person responsible for not pushing the standard when he had the chance...

[Papasmurf7597]

Bill,

I did'nt see a fight start !!! I was under the impression that a good conversation was takeing place pertaining to the subject at hand.
As far as the guy that really did start, shall we say, the differing gauges, I feel that his name is probably lost to time.

Take care,

Bruce

[This message has been edited by Papasmurf7597 (edited 11-09-2005).]

[Bill Shields]

Not really a fight, just a discussion about what was better, which wasn't the point.

No the name of the person is not lost forever, it is a name that most of you know and would probably never in 100 years imagine that he had anything to do with it. I get my information from the lone surviving founding member of PVLS, who happens to share a house with me at age 83..and who was a very good friend of the fellow in question.

[Papasmurf7597]

Bill,

Sorry for drifting off of your topic. And, are we ever going to know this gentleman's name or will that remain a secret.
I really wish this gauge thing had not happened. There are many really nice tracks in the NE that I would have loved to run at.

Take care,
Bruce

[Bill Shields]

pasmurf:

I am just waiting a while to see if anyone else knows...probably not, since the few remaining steamers alive that know of it, most likely are not using BBS or computers.

Believe it or not, it was Lester Friend, who, on a lengthy trip across the country to meet many other IBLS members, made the mistake of remarking on many occasions, when asked, that "It didn't make much difference, 7-1/4 or 7-1/2"...and that started the snowball rolling...because as others have mentioned, there weren't many people building in that gauge at the time, and those that were, WEREN'T travelling with them any great distance, so it was the home club or no club. Kinda short-sighted, we can all admit using 20-20 hindsight.

And yes, I agree about the difficulties. Just 10 miles north of where I live is a very nice 7-1/2" gauge track, owned by John Marshall, formerly called "the Magic Age of Steam"...and there is no way my 7-1/4 will run on it...

To me west is CALS in the Baltimore area..again wrong gauge. Many nice tracks down in VA.....

We Delawarians are right in the middle of the 'split'...Maybe I will need to break down and just make a 7-1/2 engine..that would REALLY make my wife happy....

[Bill Cody]

Mr. Shields: To me that is the logical course of action to take. I counted the tracks listed in LS and found over 90% were 7.5" gauge. If you are content to operate only in the North East then stay with 7.25" gauge. If you wish to travel the whole country, go 7.5", I have and don't regret it. Bill

[Bill Shields]

Not a case of regrets, just practicality. Been at this too many years to worry about.

What I am really interested in is the population of folks running 1" and 3/4" engines...purely one of personal interest..

[andypullen]

Hi Bill,

I have a Friends 1" scale Atlantic that I just bought. It needs to be finished. I bought it solely on the word of Joe Tanski and Don Carr who both own one. There are pics of mine and Don's over on the Chaski board under the heading: Yankee Shop 1" Atlantic. It will have a copper boiler like Don's does...

I enjoy running the smaller scales mainly because there is much less traffic on those tracks. We have a 1" ground level track and a 3/4"- 1" elevated track in Baltimore. The elevated is currently being rebuilt (along with our inside loop of 7 1/2"), but the ground level 1" track is operable.

Out of state boiler inspections fees will be picked up by the CALS. Read the boiler rules I emailed you. You will need to do a 200% hydro inspection for your first inspection, but every year thereafter, it's 150%. Come for a visit sometime...

PLS, NJLS, RSME, ALS, LILS and others are fine tracks to operate 7 1/4" trains on.

I have run on a number of tracks over the years. My brother builds electrics with regaugable wheelsets. He can run anywhere with his equipment.

In answer to your original question; the majority of trains that are operated in the CALS are 7 1/2" gauge. Probably 80%. Seems everybody wants to haul the public....The rest is split between the the other 2 scales.

I know of 2 3/4" scale locomotives under construction in the Baltimore area besides what I have. And, there are probably at least 10 or 15 more that are runnable. I have a friend in Ohio who builds only in 3/4" scale. He's got some nice stuff.

Andy Pullen

[This message has been edited by andypullen (edited 11-10-2005).]

[This message has been edited by andypullen (edited 11-10-2005).]

[Bill Shields]

Andy -

Thanks - information just what I was looking for.

State boiler inspectors..pain to get one there, and do they come on Sundays..and are they RELIABLE to show up when called? (most State agencies...well sometimes leave a lot to be desired).

[andypullen]

Hi Bill,

You need to make an appointment with the inspector in advance. They will show up when you ask them to. I can call them for you when you come to visit.

It's one of the things in Maryland Gov't that does work. Even if I don't happen to agree with the State sticking its nose into our business.

Andy Pullen

[Bill Shields]

Assume this appointment can include a Sunday?

[andypullen]

Yes, I had him come out once on a Sunday and once on the 4th of July weekend.

[Bill Shields]

A STATE EMPLOYEE....on 4 July? Bet he loved that....

[andypullen]

Oh yeah. He just grinned and bore it. Oh well. You do what you have to do. It wasn't the regular guy, but he did have the required knowledge. I'm guessing the regular guy filled him in. I made that appointment 2 weeks in advance.

Granted, I could have had him come to the house, too at a more agreeable time but the job at the time frowned on "unscheduled" time off. Heck, they now frown on scheduled time off.

Andy Pullen

[JDMSNEPHIEW]

08-07-06
DEAR ANDY,
I JUST WAS PUT ONTO THIS SITE BY CLOVER. MY NAME IS PAUL MAHAR THE JDM IN MYUSER NAME REFERS TO MY FAVORITE UNCLE JOHN DENIS MAHAR(BORN 1898 DIED 1975). HE WAS A TEACHER OF MATH/SCIENCE AT ST. CHARLES COLLEGE, CATONSVILLE, MD. HE HAD WORKED AS A DRAFTSMAN AND A HOSTLER ON THE PRR EARLY LAST CENTURY AND NEVER LOST HIS LOVE FOR STEAM LOCOS AND THE PRR. HE CREATED AND MARKETED IN I BELIEVE THE 30'S TO THE 50'S PLANS OF HIS OWN DRAFTING OF PRR E6s AND G5 ENGINES. I DO NOT POSESS ANY SET OF PLANS BUT I HOPE SOMEONE MIGHT - WHICH I WOULD HAPPILY PURCHASE. HIS PARTNER IN THIS ADVENTURE WAS A PAUL BEACOM I DO NOT KNOW UNDER WHAT NAME THEY WERE MARKETED. I INHERITED HIS SHOP EQUIP AND MULTIPLE PIECES OF PARTLY COMPLETED LOCOMOTIVES. I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW THE NAME OF THE 3/4" MODELER IN OHIO YOU MAKE REFERENCE TO. I WISH TO COMPLETE AN ALMOST COMPLETED 4-4-2 E6S IN 3/4" SCALE AND A LESS COMPLETE G5 IN THE SAME SCALE. IN ANY EVENT JOHN MAHAR BEING IN THE BALTAMORE AREA PROBABLY CHOS GAGE ON FRIENDSHIPS THERE. I AM GOING TO NEED SOME ADVICE, AND AM GLAD THERE IS SUCH A FORUM. BEST WISHES, PJM


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by andypullen:
Hi Bill,

I have a Friends 1" scale Atlantic that I just bought. It needs to be finished. I bought it solely on the word of Joe Tanski and Don Carr who both own one. There are pics of mine and Don's over on the Chaski board under the heading: Yankee Shop 1" Atlantic. It will have a copper boiler like Don's does...

I enjoy running the smaller scales mainly because there is much less traffic on those tracks. We have a 1" ground level track and a 3/4"- 1" elevated track in Baltimore. The elevated is currently being rebuilt (along with our inside loop of 7 1/2"), but the ground level 1" track is operable.

Out of state boiler inspections fees will be picked up by the CALS. Read the boiler rules I emailed you. You will need to do a 200% hydro inspection for your first inspection, but every year thereafter, it's 150%. Come for a visit sometime...

PLS, NJLS, RSME, ALS, LILS and others are fine tracks to operate 7 1/4" trains on.

I have run on a number of tracks over the years. My brother builds electrics with regaugable wheelsets. He can run anywhere with his equipment.

In answer to your original question; the majority of trains that are operated in the CALS are 7 1/2" gauge. Probably 80%. Seems everybody wants to haul the public....The rest is split between the the other 2 scales.

I know of 2 3/4" scale locomotives under construction in the Baltimore area besides what I have. And, there are probably at least 10 or 15 more that are runnable. I have a friend in Ohio who builds only in 3/4" scale. He's got some nice stuff.

Andy Pullen

[This message has been edited by andypullen (edited 11-10-2005).]

[This message has been edited by andypullen (edited 11-10-2005).]</font>

[pockets]

Boy, if there was anything that could drag me down to 1.5"-1.6" it would be a good set of prints for a G5....., or a B&O E27ca.

Greg B.

[This message has been edited by pockets (edited 08-08-2006).]

[andypullen]

Hi Greg,

Joe Mastrorocco has a gorgeous PRR G-5 in 1.6" scale. Go over to Discoverlivesteam.com and look in the articles. There are some pics of it in there. The title of the article is: "Steam in the Juniata Valley". I'm sure he still has drawings and maybe some patterns, too.

I'll see if I can get a hold of him for you...

Welcome, Paul,

I had a line on an original set of PRR prints for the E-6s. The man I borrowed them from originally cannot find them at the moment. I have another friend in Pennsylvania that has another set of those drawings, too. I just need to get up to visit him and run the prints down to the copier.

I'm building my E-6s with Coventry parts. You know; The Standard Railroad of the World had alot of interchangable parts, so I can feasibly do that and get a convincing model that's relatively close to prototype.

There were some parts that just weren't available through Miniature Power Products. He has the patterns and wouldn't get any poured, but another set turned up and some of them are at the foundry as I type this.

I'd like to see what you've got as far as the locomotive goes....Regarding the G-5, somebody used Coventry parts to build that one as well. I saw one some years ago at NJLS. Very nice model...

John Hudak is the guy in Ohio who only builds in 3/4" scale. I can connect you with him...Great guy, and he's been a good friend for awhile now. We've been trading parts back and forth for a number of years and we set up a couple of tables at Cabin Fever in January...

Andy Pullen

[This message has been edited by andypullen (edited 08-08-2006).]

[pockets]

Andy,
Thanks. I'll check DLS. I had a brass one back when I was in O Scale. It didn't go with anything else I had, but it was so aesthetically (can't spell, either) pleasing I just had to have it. I'm not a Pennsy fan, but they did make a few pieces that appeal to me.

Greg B.

[GWRdriver]

I have been reading a copy of "The Miniature World of Henry Greenly", the biography of Henry Greenly, and along with it a history of the origins of model engineering and live steam as we know it today. (What!? You thought LBSC was the sole inventor of live steam? Model engineering was well developed before LBSC was born.)

In any case, it clearly records that although there were a number of what we would now call odd-ball gauges the most popular gauge for 1"± scale in England between 1880 and WW1 was 4-3/4". So apparently we (the USA) did adopt all the British standard gauges across the board but at some point the British widened 4-3/4" to 5" gauge. The book hasn't yet said when and why this specific change took place but it does mention that in developing scale and gauge standards before WW1 a few of the gauges in use were eliminated, or at least not carried forward, and a few were adjusted to the next larger even dimension in order to provide more loading gauge and additional space for the inner workings. Maybe Alan can shed some light on this?


[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 08-08-2006).]

[Alan Stepney]

I do know that 4 3/4" was scaled at 1" to the ft, and 5" was, and still is, scaled at 1 1/16".

Why one was dropped and the other retained, I have no idea.

Similarly, 9 1/4" (or was it 9 1/2") was popular once, but died out, and 10 1/4" took its place.

What caused these changes would probably be hard or imposible to discover at this distance in time.

[GWRdriver]

I feel certain these changes weren't without opposition and conflict, and I've already read that Greenly had a hand in setting gauge standards, so perhaps when I read further into the book I'll find out why.