4"copper tube, type L, wall 0.110 [Archive] - Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading Forum

GWRdriver

06-10-2006, 12:58 PM

I made some suggestions on finding copper bits to NYC elsewhere which are basically as follows:
Depending upon your location a short piece of large diameter copper tube may be hard to come by but of all the larger diamaters 4" will be the easiest to find.

Call local pipe suppliers/distributors, although they will only sell in full (10ft & 20ft) lengths, ask them who they sell 4" to locally. This will no doubt be commercial and residential contractors and mchanical contractors. Call these people and ask if they have any short lengths/scraps of 4" in the cut-offs rack.

As I mentioned before, copper prices (and therefore SCRAP copper prices) are near an all-time high so there is now a much greater incentive to not allow scraps of copper which have little use to them to lay around very long. #1 clean copper (scrap) is over $3/lb these days and 4" copper weights roughly 6lb lin/ft so the base scrap value of 4" will be around $18 lin/ft. Most plumbers however will want to get at least what they paid for it.

PS - Remember, it is best not to mention to anyone you are negotiating to buy this from that it is for a miniarure boiler.

[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 06-10-2006).]

Bill Shields

06-10-2006, 02:22 PM

alaskan copper has 4" copper bus bar that is available..

www.alaskancopper.com (http://www.alaskancopper.com)

they are in the State of Washington..go figure.

Victor Smagovic

06-10-2006, 09:49 PM

I know you made some suggestions before, and believe me I am ussually pretty good, if I say so myself, in finding things. I now live in Maine, in a little town, Portland is the largest town on ehour away, and it is hard to find there anything, it is just that it is not NY or NJ. I used to live there. Also, the cost of 10' will be well over the board. I just thought that someone might have a piece, left over from some other adventure, and that is why I asked. I understand there are many way to skin the cat. I tried Copper Exchange. They list (all?) companies by the product, I found a few companies that listed the tube. But, when I sent them e-mail they said they do not carry it. Many companies just do not even answer unless you try to buy a truckload. Thanks for your suggestions. Vic

Originally posted by GWRdriver:
I made some suggestions on finding copper bits to NYC elsewhere which are basically as follows:
Depending upon your location a short piece of large diameter copper tube may be hard to come by but of all the larger diamaters 4" will be the easiest to find.

Call local pipe suppliers/distributors, although they will only sell in full (10ft & 20ft) lengths, ask them who they sell 4" to locally. This will no doubt be commercial and residential contractors and mchanical contractors. Call these people and ask if they have any short lengths/scraps of 4" in the cut-offs rack.

As I mentioned before, copper prices (and therefore SCRAP copper prices) are near an all-time high so there is now a much greater incentive to not allow scraps of copper which have little use to them to lay around very long. #1 clean copper (scrap) is over $3/lb these days and 4" copper weights roughly 6lb lin/ft so the base scrap value of 4" will be around $18 lin/ft. Most plumbers however will want to get at least what they paid for it.

PS - Remember, it is best not to mention to anyone you are negotiating to buy this from that it is for a miniarure boiler.

[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 06-10-2006).]

Victor Smagovic

06-10-2006, 09:51 PM

Andy, thank you. I hope you have it! Take care. Vic

Originally posted by andypullen:
I have some 4" copper. I'll check the wall thickness for you...

Andy Pullen

Victor Smagovic

06-10-2006, 09:53 PM

Bill, I talked to them, they do not have a 4" tube, it has to be a tube. It is for a boiler. Thanks. Vic

Originally posted by Bill Shields:
alaskan copper has 4" copper bus bar that is available..

www.alaskancopper.com (http://www.alaskancopper.com)

they are in the State of Washington..go figure.

GWRdriver

06-10-2006, 09:57 PM

I know you made some suggestions before It's hard to know what to say when you don't know where people are or what their scrounging skills are. It's easy in some places and impossible in others.

NYC

06-10-2006, 10:14 PM

Victor, don't feel bad,not long ago I sent out over 15 e-mails to copper tube suppliers asking about 5" and 6" dia. tube. Not one of them bothered to answer.

Victor Smagovic

06-10-2006, 10:19 PM

GWRdriver, it is good what you said. You could not know that I read your stuff you suggested before. I just explained all to make sure you know I read all you write. Actually, you and Unka are perhaps two of the most helpful people to us new guys. Thanks again. Vic
Originally posted by GWRdriver:
I know you made some suggestions before It's hard to know what to say when you don't know where people are or what their scrounging skills are. It's easy in some places and impossible in others.

GWRdriver

06-10-2006, 11:14 PM

Vic,
I try to be careful of "preaching to the choir", describing things that people might already know or do or which is otherwise obvious (see there, I just did it again) because I don't like it when I'm on the other end. It happens to me regularly (not here) and depending upon the tone of the message it can really rub me the wrong way.

There's a guy in our club who was really bad about that and he used to drive me NUTs! I could be in a very technical conversation about say, designing a valve gear, and he would say something like "This is called a slide valve, because it slides over the ports." I want to say "Does the mere fact that we are even having this conversation not indicate to you that I probably already know that?" But we must be accepting and tolerant of the peculiarities and pecadillos of our brother club members musn't we.

In any case, I try to be aware of preaching to the choir when I'm posting but sometimes you have no way of knowing how informed someone is (or who's lurking) so rather than leave someone partially informed about something which I figure might have a broader interest I go ahead and include what may be obvious.

[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 06-10-2006).]

Victor Smagovic

06-10-2006, 11:22 PM

GWRdriver, no problem, you are great guy and knowledgeable on top of it, we love you. Have a great weekend. Vic Originally posted by GWRdriver:
Vic,
I try to be careful of "preaching to the choir", describing things that people might already know or do or which is otherwise obvious because I don't like it. It happens to me regularly (not here) and depending upon how the tone of the message it can really rub me the wrong way.

There's a guy in our club who was really bad about that and he used to drive me NUTs! I could be in a very technical conversation about say, designing a valve gear, and he would say something like "This is called a slide valve, because it slides over the ports." I want to say "Does the mere fact that we are even having this conversation not indicate to you that I probably already know that?"

In any case, I try to be aware of preaching to the choir when I'm posting but sometimes you have no way of knowing how informed someone is (or who's lurking) so rather than leave someone partially informed about something which I figure might have a broader interest I go ahead and include what may be obvious.

[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 06-10-2006).]

Alan Stepney

06-11-2006, 02:43 AM

It seems that larger sizes of copper tube are hard to find over that side of the pond.

It is (fairly) readily available here, and I wonder what it would cost to buy from here and pay the postage?

andypullen

06-14-2006, 11:48 AM

Hi Victor,

The copper tube I have has a 1/16" wall thickness. I've got a guy at work looking for a piece for you, though....You might want to contact HVAC contractors for a drop if I can't locate any....Or, commercial plumbers. The problem is; copper's scrap price has gone through the roof and most users will take the drops to the scrapyard....

Andy Pullen

watt-steam

06-14-2006, 12:51 PM

www.russelmetals.com (http://www.russelmetals.com) lists 4" od x .25 and 4" od x .321 copper ASTM B42-122. This pipe is called 3 1/2" in the IPS pipe naming system.

Look under "product cataloigue" to find the copper section.

It will cost a fortune, but since Russel (a major metal distributor) list it in their current products, you should be able to find a sub-distributor of Russel's near you that has some. I didn't see any 4" od thinner than .25"

EARS_MCFLY

06-15-2006, 12:33 PM

.250" wall thickness? Isn't that a bit of over-kill? Take a LOT of heat to get that up to soldering temperature won't it?

GWRdriver

06-15-2006, 01:03 PM

Al,
That's PIPE and the material we want is TUBE, the two have different dimensional standards.

watt-steam

06-15-2006, 01:49 PM

having some .25 pipe rather than no .110 tube would be the better state, wouldn't it?

so far no one has found .110 wall tube, have they? thats why I suggested the .25 stuff, which I'm confident he could actually get.

(although after checking price I doubt if anyone will want it, or .110 either, in copper)

Victor Smagovic

06-15-2006, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by andypullen:
Hi Victor,
Andy, thanks for yourr effirts. I went to Portland ME on Monday and went some of the largest places, and they have only 2". ME has only 1.5 mill of year around population. The houses between my town (on NH border) and Portland are smal afew appart. I gather pipe like that is used by hospitals and industrial places. I am sure someone has a bit somewhere but the trick is to find him. Thanks again. Vic
The copper tube I have has a 1/16" wall thickness. I've got a guy at work looking for a piece for you, though....You might want to contact HVAC contractors for a drop if I can't locate any....Or, commercial plumbers. The problem is; copper's scrap price has gone through the roof and most users will take the drops to the scrapyard....

Andy Pullen

Victor Smagovic

06-15-2006, 02:21 PM

Andy thank you for your efforts. I went to Portland ME on Monday and visited a few largest plumbing places and all they had was 2". Lets face it Maine has a population of only 1.5mill people. The houses people live in are using mostly 1/2" and 3/4" pipes. Pipe like 4" is perhaps used by hospitals and factories. So, considering the price there is very little incentive to keep any 4" in stock. But, I am not givivng up as yet. Thanks again Vic

Victor Smagovic

06-15-2006, 02:32 PM

Watt-steam, thanks for you contribution. I found the pipe, did you notice that the pipe is 273lbs heavy? That is a lot of copper to buy for a little boiler. Actually, there is place called Copper Exchange. There you can find by state what is available. The tube I am looking for shows up a few times. The problem is to find who willing to sell to looser like me. They like sell truckloads. I sent a few e-mails out, one answered that they do no carry it, even that they were listed, another one, using their internal e-mail went in a loop and I exhausted their e-mail space. I hope I do not get arrested for that, and the third one has not answered as yet. I have a feeling, that unless I get lucky, I will have to roll one myself. It just was not in my plans to build a first boiler and roll my own. I am waiting for Alec Farmer's book which apprently contains a lot of wisdom for this kind of sorcerry. Thanks again, take care. Vic

Victor Smagovic

06-15-2006, 02:44 PM

Alan I am not ignoring you, and I see what you saying. It so happened that lately I had to go back to my place of residence (UK)from 1967 to 1970 and get things there. Trouble is that we are not talking about a tool, say, where one goes in a catalog and orders it. I would have to somehow find a place where they sell short piece of it. I decided that considering costs of it (and in this case as well the shape of it the postage would be excessive, if not imposible because of the length) I will roll my own. I am not giving up as yet, I feel that eventually it will appear from a thin air. Actually, a nice guy from Canada mentioned that he has a piece and that he will find out how much the postage would be, but I have not heard from him for a while now. But, I might be back to you. I just want to use such a solution as the last resort before rolling my own. So I will blow up again. Done when about 13. We were building a rocket and it blew up. Both my ear drums are shot, but it did not messed up face. I was lucky that time. Take care. thanks. Vic

Alan Stepney

06-16-2006, 12:43 AM

Victor, if you dont get sorted over the next few weeks, let me know.
I will be over there in a couple of months and could probably pack a piece in my luggage.
(Although what the airport scanners would make of it is anybody's guess!!)

At least it would be in the right continent then.

Victor Smagovic

06-16-2006, 08:24 AM

Alan, thanks. That would be very nice of you. Vic

Bill Shields

06-16-2006, 11:18 AM

I called alaskan and they HAVE 6" copper Bus Bar in stock...no 4".

they suggested farmers copper in gavleston Tx. www.farmerscopper.com...who (http://www.farmerscopper.com...who) list 4, 5, 6"

their offices were closed...will check this AM with them.

alaskan says that the copper pipe / tube / buss bar comes from Mexico..takes 4-6 months from time of order to restock.

Bill Shields

06-16-2006, 03:17 PM

Just spoke with farmer's copper.

See my post under COPPER TUBE / SHEET for details.

EARS_MCFLY

06-16-2006, 08:33 PM

Alan's kind offer to help is what makes the ME hobby all worthwhile!! And I am VERY curious as to what airport security will make of a piece of Copper tubing. I'd like to be a fly on the wall when he goes through the scanners!!

Bill Shields

06-16-2006, 08:56 PM

20 years ago, I had a friend bring back a stack of sheet brass for my tender from the UK (we were in Saudi at the time).

The stack of brass was about 12" wide, 24" long and about 1" thick or so..wrapped in newspaper with a handle on it..and VERY HEAVY.

Ron put it down on the x-ray bent, and naturally, it stopped in the scanner while they scratched their heads.

"what's in it?"
"brass...it's a solid stack of brass"
"I can see that, but what's inside?"
"Nothing you idiot, it's a solid piece of brass".
"OK, open it up, let's look..."

Ron very casually lifted the stack off the belt (about 100#+ worth) and handed it to the guy to 'open up'...

It went straight to the floor, along with the inspector....at which time they finally comprehended what he was saying..it was SOLID METAL.

Duh....

Victor Smagovic

06-16-2006, 10:37 PM

Bill, what is this bus bar. I thought it is a chunk of rectagular shape copper. Is this how you call tube down in Delaware? Just kidding, but what is bus bar anyhow?

By the way I saw your contribution about you finding 4, 5, 6" copper tubing. Unfortunately, as you said they would not sell other then 20' which translates to $800. That is too steep for a poor retired guy.

Actually, I found one place even here in Maine, today. The only problem is he wants also $800. However, he gave me a few names of his customers whom might have some left overs. May be I will get lucky. Getting lucky used to have some kind of different meaning, but I cannot recall what it was anymore, well.... Now I have to find where they are and perhaps, rather than telephone them, will drive there and make a sweep.

[This message has been edited by Victor Smagovic (edited 06-16-2006).]

Victor Smagovic

06-16-2006, 10:47 PM

Ears, you are right, I was very impressed. Vic Smagovic

Victor Smagovic

06-16-2006, 10:50 PM

Bill, I cannot find it. Where is it on this BB? Or, somewhere else?. Thanks Vic

pockets

06-16-2006, 10:53 PM

Vic,
Bus bar can be either rectangular in cross section or round, like heavy wall pipe. It's used a lot in electrical substations.

Greg B.

GWRdriver

06-16-2006, 11:33 PM

I make my mud rings from slices of bus bar (the rectangular variety.)

Victor Smagovic

06-17-2006, 12:25 AM

Greg, I know a lot about rectangular bars, mostly from eletrical engineering. They are mostly used for very high current/low voltage power distribution. I was not aware that anyone uses also the round bars, mostly because it is more difficult to connect them with minimum resistance to whenever the curent is being fed. Bill mentioned 4" bars at the outset when I opened this topic, and I did not know why he said it. I can see when Harry uses a slice of chunk of round or rectangular copper and makes mud rings from it (I hate to admit it, but I do not as yet know what the hell a mud ring is and what it is for - it is one of topics on my to learn soon list).
I wanted to say that I had a ball yesterday and learned a lot. I am amazed at the patience most of you have with some of us newer users, and also I am amazed at the depth of the knowledge available. By the way is Unka OK? I did not see him yesterday. Many thanks all of you. It looks I joined agood place to learn and make some new friends. Vic Smagovic

GWRdriver

06-17-2006, 12:59 AM

Victor,
The mud ring is a ring of metal (copper for copper boilers, steel for steel) which separates the inner firebox assembly (wrapper and heads) from the outer firebox assembly and closes off the waterleg bottoms of a "wetleg" boiler. A wet leg boiler is one which has a water space surrounding the firebox on one or more sides. In model practice a mud ring is built up of of four (usually) lengths of bar of roughly square section, although it certainly could be rectangular. This is also known as the foundation ring but mud ring is far better known.

Victor Smagovic

06-17-2006, 09:26 AM

Harry thanks. That explains it. Vic

Bill Shields

06-17-2006, 12:27 PM

Victor:

Bus bar comes in many shapes, round 'tube' is one, believe it or not

Some electrical designs use the round tube as a conductor for not only electricity but cooling air up the middle to increase the capacity....a bit unusual, but still found here and there..

Finding the copper was only the first part of the equation. $800 may be a bit much for you, but if there are 4-5 people that DO want the stuff, it becomes a doable proposition. Just getting info out is often 1/2 of the battle.

Victor Smagovic

06-17-2006, 12:52 PM

Bill, I learned something, I was not sure why you mentioned the bar the first time introduced the question. I thought I did not expressed myself well. I still do not know what I would do, even with a round bar of that size. Turn it? That would be a lof of money in chips.

Well, anyhow. Yesterday you mentioned on another BB that you took a stroll and found 4, 5, 6"copper. Would you share with us where?

Secondly, you mentioned that you talked to the Farmers. I did sent them e-mail but I have not heard from them. You mentioned that you talked to them on the phone and that the results of the conversation are published elsewhere. I did not find it. Can you please point me in the right direction. Was the answer they gave you positive?

I also found a place in Maine that carries 4" L type, but again is selling whole 20'. They gave me names of a couple of customers that buy this stuff. I have to now find where they are and see if I can visit them and beg.

You had a good suggestion to buy 20' and resell it. The problem is that I am not a good salesmen. This is why I worked whole my live in the Research and Development. I now hope I will find someone who has a scrap to sell.

As I was browsing around the various BBs I noticed that another guy complained that If one lives in Montana or Alaska (similar like Maine), one can forget about finding anything which falls in the category of industrial material. As I said before, should I still be livin in NJ I would do the same you did, take a walk, and most probably have it before the lunch.

So, Bill I hope you will share with me/us those two info you mentioned yesterday. By the way I rode a camel too, twice, in Egypt. Thanks. Take care. Vic

Bill Shields

06-17-2006, 04:30 PM

copied to here:

www.farmerscopper.com (http://www.farmerscopper.com)

4" K hard 4-1/8 OD 1/8" wall many in stock alloy 122 $40/foot, 20' lengths

5" pipe 1/4" wall will cut to length 122 alloy $141 / foot

6" pipe in stock...$165 / foot will cut...
1/4" wall.

Many of these places don't check e-mail regularly, so I just call...gets results faster..that is how I found out that BECAUSE of the high price, the suppliers are not ordering the big stuff because it doesn't move...

All things considered, steel is an easier way to (go for me).

Victor Smagovic

06-17-2006, 06:15 PM

Bill, thank you. I wish I know about it as much as you do. I have not done any welding. I got a MIG recently, before I read all this stuff that that it does not penetrate as much as is needed. And, I noticed that on my own when I played with it.
One reason why I did not get a reply from Farmes as yet is, that is Saturday. I forgot. Have a great weekend. Vic

Bill Shields

06-17-2006, 08:22 PM

Victor:

MIG is possible with the right wire, but not recommended..even professional welders / boiler makers don't generally use it for many reasons.

The $$ of copper isn't so bad if 4-5 people get together to purchase a length (hint-hint).

Don't let the lack of copper to build a boiler stop you from enjoying the hobby. Small steel boilers can be built and produce steam.

If you need help modifying the design to steel, don't be afraid to ask..it isn't that big a deal. My oldest steel boiler started steaming in 1982 and is still running without need for any repairs..