Hrdro testing a BOILER

[cbrhs819dc]

One other question, I read in the Sept/oct issue of Live Seam Mag, (the only issue I have) on page 50 in the article Model Locomotive Plumbing. In the article it say to hydro new or used boilers to at least 150% over operating preassure. To me that seams to way to high. Is that correct? We only have to hydro the 819 30% over operating pressure of 250# Thats all FRA on a full size loco. 150% over operating pressure of 100# to 125# would be a heck of alot. I would think that would be plumb dangerous. Darrel Cason 870/536/1229 cbrhs819@localnet.com

[srrl5]

If your boiler can't take 150% of operating pressure for a hydro you don't want to be any were near it under steam.

David

[GWRdriver]

Darrel,
Not only is it correct but it's low in one aspect. The test standard for copper boilers is 2xWP on first test of a new boiler and 1.5xWP on subsequent tests. It is one way our perfect record of safety has been preserved. Making direct comparisons between model and full size boiler practices is like apples to oranges, yes there are certain general similarities but construction and testing practices and requirements are substantially different.

[cbrhs819dc]

OK, I am convinced that article was right, One other question? I am going to use our hand hydro pump,the one we use to test the superheater tubes. Do I hard pipe it to the boiler, or use a hydralic hose on the high pressure side? What do most clubs use? by cbrhs819dc:
One other question, I read in the Sept/oct issue of Live Seam Mag, (the only issue I have) on page 50 in the article Model Locomotive Plumbing. In the article it say to hydro new or used boilers to at least 150% over operating preassure. To me that seams to way to high. Is that correct? We only have to hydro the 819 30% over operating pressure of 250# Thats all FRA on a full size loco. 150% over operating pressure of 100# to 125# would be a heck of alot. I would think that would be plumb dangerous. Darrel Cason 870/536/1229 cbrhs819@localnet.com [/QUOTE]

[srrl5]

I have been using a hydralic hose.

David

[cbrhs819dc]

David, What size hose do you use? cbrhs819dc <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by srrl5:
I have been using a hydralic hose.

David</font>

[srrl5]

Had a spare #4 hose about 2' long with #4JIC swivel nuts. Need two #4JIC to 1/4" male pipe fittings to hook up the hose.

David

[Bill Cody]

On hydro test pressure. I have been told it is not 1.5 times WP but 1.5 times MAP. MAP is the setting on the relief valve. You are correct in testing to 2 times MAP on the initial test, the one prior to firing the boiler. After it has been fired you test to 1.5 MAP. On first firing to the boiler you should also conduct an accumulation test to check the relief valves for adequate relief capacity. Bill

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

If by MAP you mean Maximum Allowable Pressure, then the safeties (and thus the WP) can be set lower.

The Australian AMBSC code says: initial test 2 x WP, re-tests 1.25 x WP (for copper boilers, I don't have the steel code handy, but ISTR it was 1.5 x WP). During "accumulation" tests with all safeties opening, the pressure may not rise to more than WP + 10% at any time. So, here MAP is WP + 10%.

I myself re-test to at least 1.5 x WP, and my initial tests were in fact to 2.5 x WP - because of a somewhat unorthodox boiler design...

Greetings,
J-E

[Bill Cody]

J-E: I had a vertical boiler in my 20' steamboat with the safety set at 150 PSI (MAP) and my run pressure was 120 PSI. With a run pressure less than MAP I could run all day and not lift the safety other than the initial test prior to leaving the dock. In a boat you have to be careful not to lose water, water you must carry to make-up water that is lost blowing the whistle and for the burner (Oil firing with a steam atomizing burner). I ran full condensing and could go out in the ocean. The boat is now based on Shaw Island in the San Juan Islands on Pugent sound. Bill

[Unka Jesse]

I have tested all five of my boilers at 400psig for the first test and then at 150 psig every year since then. I know 400 psi is a bit much, but if nothing lets go at that pressure, I ain't gonna worry my old gray head about sending pieces of the boiler and myself up in the air with the birds.

While on this subject of boilers, I have seen engineers leave their locomotives simmering in the yard while they went off to chew the fat. Safety might lift a time or two without anyone bothering to see what the water level was. Now, this worries me! http://bbs.livesteam.net//frown.gif

Unka Jesse

[Bill Cody]

Me to. When I see it I go the other way and put distance between me and the offendidng boiler. I know I can leave my 4+4 for extended periods with just the pilot going and I will not lift the safety, but that is my engine. Bill

[willy]

My 3.75 scale loco I could just crack the valve to the steam pump. It would pump every 5 minutes or so. Useful for when you wanted to grab a bite or two.

Willy (gads I miss that loco)

[Bill Shields]

Follow the rules of the club issuing the certificate....which may vary a bit from ASME practice...unless you have a code boiler, then it is cast in iron....

I build boilers to handle 3X operating pressure and never worry about them...

I don't pressure test to that high....but I DO design for as many potential problems as I can think of.

How you get the pressure into the boiler is immaterial...any hose or tube good for the pressure will do...size is not an issue since the volume being pushed through to do the test is minimal....1/8" copper tubing is good to what?...many 100'S of psi with soft-soldered fittings.

[This message has been edited by Bill Shields (edited 03-27-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Bill Shields (edited 03-27-2006).]

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Or even:

Fill to the brim, plug everything, heat gently. Your pressure will soar with just a few ten degrees of temperature rise.

Careful, though, not to get it hotter than "comfy"...

Greetings,
J-E

[Bill Shields]

J-E:

not to sound concerned...but heat gently?

Hair dryer?

[GWRdriver]

Simply leaving one in the sun will do the job.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

A small, hand-held propane torch works for me. As long as I can keep my hand comfortably on the boiler, the risk of injury in case of failure is zero - you might get squirted with some luke-warm water, thats all.

During my recent test, the pressure rose to 16 bars (approx. 220 psi) in about five minutes, while the water and the boiler didn't even reach 125 degrees F.

The magic word here is fill to the BRIM. Any air in the boiler, and you have to heat a lot more to get the pressure up. Air is compressible, water is (practically) not.

Greetings,
J-E

[This message has been edited by Jan-Eric Nystrom (edited 03-28-2006).]

[Unka Jesse]

Harry, J-E, you two gents say I have been needlessly wearing out my arm and shoulder all these years yanking on a hand pump to hydro? http://bbs.livesteam.net//mad.gif

Unka Jesse

[GWRdriver]

Jesse,
Yep, a boiler with air excluded will get nice and pressurized left in the west TN sun. Bob Wilson of Memphis (now dec'd) inadvertantly tested his IC 4-8-4 that way. He set up his test outside intending to hand pump it and decided to break for lunch and then forgot about it. When he went back out to do the test a few hours later the gauge showed 600psi.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Not having an ample supply of warm, cozy sunshine here up North, I had to use that little propane torch.

Jesse, are you saying that this method of hydro testing is not well known? Then someone of us needs to write a short piece about it, and send it to Clover for publication...

Greetings,
J-E

[Bill Shields]

Harry / J-E:

Which is really why people should be very careful / cautious about using this technique.

While 600 PSI many not damage the boiler shell / stays, there is the possibility that it could crush a tube....and getting a crushed tube out of a boiler is a real mess..

From personal (industrial) experience, we NEVER left a pressurized anything without a relief valve on it unattended EVER...11th Commandment...if it had pressure and no relief, it had a pair of eyes - no exceptions.

Even for J-E up north where it gets so cold that the water may freeze and expand...giggle..

Consider the inexperienced individual who takes J-E's 'warm it up with a torch' to a bit more extreme and decides to light up his propane burner to make things happen a bit quicker...

See where I am headed?...and there ARE people that stupid out there...

Personally, I would NEVER recommend that anyone heat a boiler with anything until hand-pumped pressure test has been completed and a proper relief valve attached.

[GWRdriver]

Bill,
So what has changed? Building and testing a boiler has always been about being careful and erring on the side of safety and caution. We are not stupid and we are not careless and we would not suggest that anyone do something which is.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Stupid people will do their stupid stuff without even reading about how to do it. They don't need our help! http://bbs.livesteam.net//biggrin.gif

Sure, heat a brim-full, plugged enclosure to much over 212 degrees, and you may have a "bomb".

However, note that I said - "As long as I can keep my hand comfortably on the boiler" that is the important thing here.

With the water no hotter than, say, 130 F - like from a hot-water faucet - there is simply no way anything worse can happen than what could if you were merely pumping.

Greetings,
J-E

[cbrhs819dc]

Hello there guys, thanks alot for you input on the hydro test. I took it to heart. But the bad news the loco I was wanting to by failed . A flue started leaking at only 80psi. I was going to start a new topic, but dumb me has forgot how. This boiler was made from a hyd clyinder used in a service station auto lift. It is 10" dia, 5/16th thick has 32 flues plus the dry pipe. Flues are steel & welded in. How much would it cost me to get it reflued, {just an estimate}. Also who in the surrounding area of Pine Bluff Arkansas would be interested in doing it? You can email me, & I can call you. Help, I am really tore up over this. Darrel Cason 870/536/1229 <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bill Cody:
On hydro test pressure. I have been told it is not 1.5 times WP but 1.5 times MAP. MAP is the setting on the relief valve. You are correct in testing to 2 times MAP on the initial test, the one prior to firing the boiler. After it has been fired you test to 1.5 MAP. On first firing to the boiler you should also conduct an accumulation test to check the relief valves for adequate relief capacity. Bill</font>

[t.wardrop]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cbrhs819dc:
But the bad news the loco I was wanting to by failed . A flue started leaking at only 80psi. I was going to start a new topic, but dumb me has forgot how. This boiler was made from a hyd clyinder used in a service station auto lift. It is 10" dia, 5/16th thick has 32 flues plus the dry pipe. Flues are steel & welded in. How much would it cost me to get it reflued, {just an estimate}. </font>

Did you keep going after 80? For an unknown boiler I would want to test it to 2 x WP and see if anything else is wrong with it aside from leaking flues (assuming you could get to that pressure with it leaking).

I don't know what the cost would be (in the size I'll be modelling my boilers will be copper, so I'm no expert on steel) but if it has welded in flues I can't imagine it would be all that much less work than a new boiler.

Having found problems with the boiler, I would also start to wonder what the condition of the rest of the loco is like.

Cheers,

Tim

[cbrhs819dc]

No, it was (the flue) leaking to bad. Well for one thing, he hydrod it 3 yrs ago. They cleaned the flues with a drill & a brass gun cleaning brush. He said they were clean & shiny then. But the loco has been sitting in his garage since then with the smoke box door open. When it rains water runs thru the garage some. Any how the flues look bad rusty to me. Also he has lost or misplaced the pistons, their rings, & piston rods & cly head covers. Also the rod pins have started to rust slighly, but I belive they will clean up easily.Every thing else is there, pluss a heck of alot of fittings & spare parts. The loco has not been run since about 1991. It was a beautiful Souther PS4 Pacific when it was running. The wheels & flanges show no wear. I used my finger nail on all the wheels, could not feel a grove or any thing. The loco was started being built in 80, finished in 83. Is $6,500.00 to much to pay for one in this condition? <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by t.wardrop:
Did you keep going after 80? For an unknown boiler I would want to test it to 2 x WP and see if anything else is wrong with it aside from leaking flues (assuming you could get to that pressure with it leaking).

I don't know what the cost would be (in the size I'll be modelling my boilers will be copper, so I'm no expert on steel) but if it has welded in flues I can't imagine it would be all that much less work than a new boiler.

Having found problems with the boiler, I would also start to wonder what the condition of the rest of the loco is like.

Cheers,

Tim</font>

[GWRdriver]

Pricing is a very difficult thing to nail down because historically they (the prices) are all over the spectrum. Many grossly overpriced (IMHO) and some much too low.

Several years ago, with the help of a very knowledgable live steamer friend, I attempted to begin a tabulation of selling prices in order to try to establish some kind of guideline or reference scale for live steam loco pricing and it proved to be impossible. There was no rhyme or reason to what things sold for and to further cloud matters although it was easy to get the asking prices it was virtually impossible to get a final selling prices because almost everyone, buyer and seller alike, tended to keep the selling prices private. The only truly revealed pricing ended up being from eBay and of course ebay prices tend to be skewed high.

In any case, a boiler either holds pressure or it doesn't; a failed hydro is a failed hydro. It cannot "sorta pass" and I would not buy a loco that could not pass a hydro unless I knew exactly what it's internal condition is and what it will take (in either labor, or money, or both) to fix the problem. This PS4 might very well be worth $6500 or more, even if it needs reboilering, but IMHO it would otherwise need to be a very well done example to bring that at this point.

Unless you have the tools and experience necessary to build a loco yourself, or at least be able to repair or replace things that might need fixin' later on, IMHO you should not buy a loco you can't see running. This may seem a bit strong but remember the key word is running. Although there are no guarrantees, there is much less likelihood that a running loco is going to have hidden major expense problems than a non-running one.


[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 03-29-2006).]

[Bill Shields]

Harry:

I just get nervous when people think of 'easy ways' but don't consider the possibilities they didn't 'think of'..as is the case with your friend that went inside and came out to 600 PSI.

Is he dumb or not careful...or did he just not 'think' of the possibility..?

The industrial world has reasons why things are done / not done because of (bad)experience(s) and I occasionally like to pass them on as food for thought..and one of those experiences is that stuff under pressure without a relief valve is NEVER heated in any way or left unattended.

I am alive today and nobody that ever worked for me was hurt because a safety rule was violated...this comes from being (occasionally) extra careful around things that can go bang when you least expect them.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Bill -

Do you agree that hydro-testing by heating with a small hand-held burner, while keeping your other hand on the boiler to ensure the temperature does not rise too much, and your eyes on the pressure gauge to ensure you don't exceed the intended test pressure, is safe?

If not, I'd like to hear why...

Greetings
J-E

[This message has been edited by Jan-Eric Nystrom (edited 03-31-2006).]

[willy]

JE I think what is boils down to (lol) is concerned that some one may not bother to do the hand check and or feels the hand feature is a waste of time.

It is a interesting way for us to try it on our own, yet as it has been mentioned, we have some real fools here in the United States. These fools would rather detonate their boiler from doing it your way and then take you to court because you said it was ok. Our courts here would find you liable and then your nifty idea is now a liability to ANYONE who fails miserably with the test of yours. So, are you rich like Bill Gates? I can see litigation running into the millions here (no, I would not be said fool. I have a diesel now! Grin http://bbs.livesteam.net//biggrin.gif)

Willy

[Bill Shields]

J-E:

Under well-controlled circumstances, which means a concientious, experienced, knowing individual...it is probably OK ....I just don't recommend it and shudder at the though of someone writing a magazine article about it.

I can also tell you that if you try to 'gently heat' a boiler as you have described it at any of the clubs I frequent, they would step back and ask you to put out the torch, either just before or after they ask you to leave the club...gentle heat to one man is a paper match...to another man it is a propane torch...the next guy brings out a flame-thrower...

The minute some putz puts a torch on an enclosed, not relief valve protected vessel full of anything, I get nervous..and you don't want to see the pictures of why I am that way....or maybe you do, but that is a bit OT.

I could make a long-drawn out story about heat on the boiler shell taking time to heat the water and the possibility of the water then getting hot and expanding more than you expect, etc: etc: etc; but I won't get into that argument because I don't like arguments...and it has been too many years since I thought about making those calculations.

As Harry pointed out from a friend, simple heating from the sun was enough to get the pressure up to 'too high'..and it doesn't take too many degrees of heat to equal another 50-100 PSI in the boiler.

I just don't like heated pressure vessels without relief valves on them...period...

If you are comfortable with the process and it meets your requirements of safety, comfort and convenience, then it is a procedure that you can use.

The bottom line, from my perspective is...why take the risk of something happening to an expensive boiler? 0.040" wall 1/2 annealed copper tubing crushes as something just under 600 PSI...so....why risk it?

Yes, I know, some idiot can also pump one time too many on a hand pump and run the pressure up too high...that is why I always hydro my little boilers with a just a 'little bit' of air in them....and a soft-seat relief valve set just below calculated failure / crush pressure of the tubes. I put too many hours into a boiler to run the risk of something unforseen happen.

That is why God made hand pumps...

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Explanation accepted! http://bbs.livesteam.net//smile.gif

Greetings,
J-E

[EARS_MCFLY]

Once upon a time, I had re-built a small miniature Code boiler that I wished to use to run a stationery engine at a public exhibition (Unka Jesse knows which one). I took my boiler to the location to have it tested by the official Tennessee State Boiler Inspector of the time. We filled it to the brim with water and then used a hand pump to pump it up for the test, but he made me remove the Safety Valve and plug the hole before he would even start to test it. I do not know if clubs in this area have that rule or not, but since he was THE MAN, I was in no position to insist that the boiler have a safety devise on it. Just my $.02 worth. BTW, it passed the test with flying colors and I was allowed to use it as long as I was present to keep an eye on the water gauge level.

[GWRdriver]

Al,
He was right (of course.) The object is to test the boiler, not the fittings. If one insists upon including the fittings in a test, and a fitting leaks and the test gauge will not hold pressure, a conscientious inspector (or anyone for that matter) MUST consider the test a failure and thus fail the boiler when in fact the boiler might not deserve to be failed. The seals of model fittings are made to handle typical working pressures, not test pressures.

Even if a weepy fitting is found it still cannot be conclusively determined if that is the only source of a leak without a re-test. You cannot say conclusively "We found the source of the leak, a weepy fitting, so the boiler itself is OK." That deduction does not prove anything except that you have isolated a weepy fitting. The boiler must be re-tested with the weepy fitting fixed, or replaced with a solid plug. If the test is conducted fittings-in and pressure is held then that could of course be considered a succesful test.

The reason so many boilers are now tested with fittings in place, and of course that is now being called "standard procedure" (NOT!), is because most people won't be bothered to remove the fittings and do a proper test and in doing so are relying on their fittings to withstand 1.5XWP tests.


[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 03-31-2006).]

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

All the times I've hydroed my boilers, they have been off the loco, all fittings removed, even the lagging. I built them so this is easy, and furthermore, I like to take the locos apart anyway, to check for wear and do adjustments, every winter (which, as you know, tend to be longish here, which means I can't run the locos for more than half of the year...)

Re. Bill's and others' remarks not to give advice which, in some circumstances, can be incompletely understood or implemented, you're right. See here:

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=406

One little quote from that page:

The British philosopher Bertrand Russell once wrote that "the trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."

So, I'd better doubt the wisdom in advocating the simple way of getting the pressure up for a hydro...

Greetings,
J-E

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Addition to the above:

Where on the scale below does my decision not to tell the world how I do my hyros put me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

Competently unconscious?

Greetings,
J-E


[This message has been edited by Jan-Eric Nystrom (edited 04-01-2006).]

[GWRdriver]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=406</font>

This is a perfect explanation of why these days so many so-called "museum quality" models AREN"T!

[Bill Shields]

Boiler hydro test procedures after the first are always somewhat up to the club.

Most of the clubs where I run don't worry about small loss of pressure during the annual hydro...as long as the water isn't leaking through the shell or fittings, pumping to keep up with throttle leakage is OK.

It is assumed that the throttle will leak a bit...AND they would LIKE to see the boiler and all its fittings tested as a whole. If a fitting cannot take 1.5X operating pressure, there is something wrong..

The mere thought of pulling the boiler off any of my engines annually to remove lagging and all fittings sends me to the 'fridge to get a beer or six...my locos are not so cleverly designed that they are easy to disassemble.

J-E:

You are one of the most conciously competent people I have had the pleasure of dealing with. Your designs are frightenly refreshing to review.

Having spent most of my life in the industrial maintenance world, where we spent day in / day out fixing things that were caused by "I didn't think" errors has made me overly cautious of recommending specific things to people....especially since lawyers have made it a business to make money from people's stupidity.

Point in case...father has son on shoulders, playing in living room. Father gets under ceiling fan, fan hits child in head. Child dies. Father sues fan company because there isn't a label on the fan saying it is dangerous. Father / lawyer win multi-million $ case against fan company.

Judge should have asked man where the 'stupidity' sign was tattoed on his skull...

Then there is the McDonald's hot coffee case..


[This message has been edited by Bill Shields (edited 04-01-2006).]