Newbie needs help

[2ft_fan]

Hi guys,

I'm new here and kind of new to the hobby. I have an Accucraft Ruby and that's about it. I know it isn't much and I didn't have to do anything to get it running. I would like to in a few years build my own locomotive from scratch. I have created a lot of my own locomotives and rolling stock for my fictional railroad the East Tigard & Southern RR Co. The whole railroad exists only on paper. I am a drafter by hobby and will be going to college for mechanical engineering (yes I am only 17 and still in High School). My question is what would be the best scale to work with, how easy is it to get boilers (coal fired), how much for a boiler, and what should I do to better prepare for building my own? Some specs on my loco in question would be a 4-6-0 with 43in drivers, 3ft gauge, outside frame, Stephenson valve gear, 47ft long from pilot to tender, 4ft diam boiler and so on. This are full scale numbers. If anyone has ever seen anything on the Oahu Railway & Land Co. this locomotive is kind of based on their #85. Thanks for your time.

-Eric Bolton
Superintendent/Owner
ET&S RR Co.

[This message has been edited by 2ft_fan (edited 02-07-2006).]

[This message has been edited by 2ft_fan (edited 02-08-2006).]

[pockets]

Welcome, Eric. I'm glad you found us. There are some very knowledgeable participants in this forum. It's not the largest, but it is rapidly becoming one of the best. This is where I go to school and I'm in my late 50's. If you read Live Steam (and why not?) you will recognize some of the names.

I've got 34 years in the railroad hobby and one of the first things I learned, when I graduated to large scale live steam, was the gap between what I thought I knew and what I actually knew.

I read a post, on another board, about an engineering school that wouldn't let the students use machine tools, for fear of injury. Check out your school and avoid any with that philosophy. If you don't have a basic understanding of what it takes to produce a product there is no way you can develop a good design for it. Besides, It will give you access to machines that you can't buy, right away.

Again, welcome,
Greg B.

[GWRdriver]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">what should I do to better prepare for building my own?</font>
I began at 18 and here is my advice . . .
Contact the live steam group wherever you end up (hopefully there will be one) and begin participating. If they don't allow "kids", or all they want you to do is load ballast or fetch coffee, find another group. Try to find a metalworking mentor also. This might be a live steamer and it might not. Ask questions and listen, bearing in mind that possibly 50% of it is BS and there will be at least three ways of doing any given thing. Avoid the "my way is the only way" guys.
And then
read
read
read
read
read
read
read,
and when you're done there,
read some more. But don't panic, you have plenty of time.
There is more technological information in print on live steam, small and large, and amatuer machining now than ever before in the history of the world. No one person knows it all (see BS above) but everything worth knowing is in print somewhere or in someone's head. I would also suggest making live steam (or any hobby) a part of a full and well rounded life, not the other way around.

[tel]

Well said Harry. The only thing that I would add is; start with something a bit simpler than your dream loco, say an 0-4-0 or an 0-6-0 (Harry's Tich springs to mind here) , that will teach you a lot, wouldn't hurt to put up a couple of stationary engines as well - good practice & a chance to sort out your techniques.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Not to in any way belittle this wonderful group of Live Steamers, there's another very good forum you could also join:

http://trains.uoregon.edu/mailman/listinfo/livesteamers

This is an e-mail group, privately managed, so it has none of the pitfalls of Yahoo and other groups that people seem to dislike.

I'm a member of both, and they complement each other wonderfully.

As to what to begin with, well, yours truly crazily took almost too big a bite:

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~animato/3003/IMG_5145.JPG

If you're not prepared to spend at least a couple of years (1,500 hobby hours), and several thousand dollars for materials and tooling, do choose something smaller...

But, if you are very sure Live Steam will be your hobby for the foreseeable future (at least several years) and you have access to tools (lathe, mill etc.) and can learn to use them, well, nothing prevents you from starting out with that 4-6-0 of your dreams.

But, the advice given by our esteamed friends above are well worth thinking about. Too big a bite may carry the risk of choking...

Have you read the "Pennsy A3" book by Kozo Hiraoka (sold on this very website, -&gt; store -&gt; steam)? That would be an excellent educational starting point, both for reading and building. The book contains wonderful instructions on machining, too.

Greetings,
J-E

[This message has been edited by Jan-Eric Nystrom (edited 02-08-2006).]

[willy]

Another loco you can get your feet wet on is the Cli-shay. The Cli-shay is a chain driven locomotive that is more stationary plant than a locomotive.

I did this locomotive as a 0-4-0 with a firetube boiler. The engine was a 1" bore with a 1.25" stroke with stephenson linkage. The loco was about 30" over all length and could pull 2500# on a 2.5% grade. I was firing it on wood, and it would probably have worked better on other fuel as well.

Mind you the Cli-shay is a very forgiving loco.

Also you might try Unka Jesse's "Newbie" as a starting point. It is also a 0-4-0 and is something you could get going relatively easily to "get your feet wet". Dont knock the fact it is a 0-4-0, you would be surprised as to the ability of these locos.

If needed, there are people on this board (for a fee) that can do some of the work for you. Andy Pullen comes to mind (biased) who built a set of axle pumps for me that truly are magnificent. http://bbs.livesteam.net//biggrin.gif

Willy

[willy]

One other thing. A side rod locomotive has some critical areas that are wicked easily made wrong.
1) your frames that hold the drivers have to be perfect! If you can get these water or laser cut, you will save yourself endless amounts of cursing. A 2 axle loco the margin of error between axles is .001". Yet if a 3 axle the margin is .0001", just keep adding 0's per additional axle. This from on Chet Peterson (God rest his soul).
2) Quartering. You have to get these absolutely 90 degrees. The ways of achieving this are many, yet this is one of those critical areas on a side rod loco. If you mess up on this,you will find as you roll the loco it will bind (stop rotating) with the rods on, yet roll fine with out the rods.
3)Alignment. After you have your quartering done and it all rolls nicely you need to find out if the cylinders are inline with the pins. When you connect your cross head to the rods and roll it and it binds it indicates that your cylinders are not on center.

You refer to the "Ruby". Just for giggles, pick up this loco and examine it closely. With your fingers, place a thumb on the driver (so it wont rotate) and gently try to move the rod back and forth, as well as up and down, as well as in - out. I have a feeling you will find it has a certain amount of "slop" in it. This is a manufacturing way of bypassing some of the above requirements. I dont advise you trying to correct their manufacturing as this may render the loco useless. The people that make these locos do not have the time to hand build the loco. These are sent down a line to be boxed and shipped in a way that makes money. Tolerances are some what of a washed thing and is observed in the books.

If you can get past this point. The rest is down hill. Boiler fabrication and certification of the vessel are a breeze to the above areas. Plumbing depends on how much finese you want to deal with. The rest is detail.

Willy

[willy]

One other area. As a machinist you need to learn how to make square edges. Some people take this for granted. Yet this is something you must learn.

Cylinder blocks are sometimes bolted to the smokebox. This helps in the manufacturing as it reduces the size of lath required to bore and one cylinders.
A cylinder consists of a cylinder bore, mounting surface, valve bore or surface depending on type of valve.
Remember the square edge? Ok, where the cylinder bolts to the frame, you have 2 lines that must be true. A vertical and a horizontal. The face of the cylinder that bolts to the frame and smokebox HAS to be perfectly inline with the bore of the cylinder. In college we spent a week of 20 hour shop time learning how to do just this.

There is alot to be learned here. I am glad you are inspired to make your locomotive, I hope I did not suppress your desire yet to fan the flame of a good challenge. It is a real accomplishment to build a side rod locomotive, and will probably help you when looking for work to show what you built.

Willy

[GWRdriver]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">2) Quartering. You have to get these absolutely 90 degrees.</font>

No you don't! Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm sorry Willy, I don't want to be picking on you, but I can't let this go unchallneged. In a perfect world it would be preferred to have drivers quatered at exactly 90 degrees because then if the valve gear was likewise "perfect", and among other reasons, the exhaust beat would be perfectly "all-square," meaning there would be four distinct exactly evenly spaced exhaust beats. But we don't live in a perfect world.

What is required to prevent binding is that all drivers on the SAME side be quartered identically, or as nearly the same as possible. If the right and left sides are different by a couple of degress it won't matter much, the exhaust beat will be off a hair but your ear won't here the tiny change, as long as each respective side is are quartered identically.

This is the type of thing you will learn about from Reading

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Alignment. After you have your quartering done and it all rolls nicely you need to find out if the cylinders are inline with the pins. When you connect your cross head to the rods and roll it and it binds it indicates that your cylinders are not on center.</font>

This makes no sense. You do NOT wait until the chassis is essentially complete to discover (on mere chance) whether your cylinder C/L and rods align properly. This is done on paper LONG before a piece of frame metal is cut.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You refer to the "Ruby".</font>

Ruby is mass-produced Gauge 1. Gauge 1 technology (mass-produced or otherwise) and large scale technology are substantially different, apples and oranges, and no item for item comparisons can be made for the two. The certain amount of "slop" in a Ruby is there so that it will run, and while it is true these aren't exactly built to watchmaking standards this was done intentionally so that price could be held down and a large number of people, guys like you (and me), could get a real live steam locomotive in their hands and get steaming for less than $500. It is a starter loco, nothing more. There is method to this madness.

Tel's advice is excellent, do not plan an Allegheny as your first loco. The bottoms of work benches the world over are littered with unfinished projects which were too ambitious for their inexperienced builder's patience. The likelihood of your completing a large loco project as a first go is infinitessimily small so plan accordingly.


[This message has been edited by GWRdriver (edited 02-08-2006).]

[watt-steam]

Willy, your comments about distances axle to axle are not true. It would be great if anyone could actually hold .001 or .0001" between axles but this is not necessary for a running loco. With the axles moving up and down, and running clearances, in many model locos I've seen axle to axle celarance is more like .005" to .010" and still works fine. The rods need to be a free fit on the crankpins and wheel pins to move freely. This could be anywhere from .002" to .005" clearance. Also, quartering DOES NOT need to be exactly 90 degrees side by side. The quartering does need to be THE SAME for all wheelsets. If done in a simple jig they can all be the same whether the angles are all 88.356 degrees or all 95.78 degrees.

However, careful machining is always a good idea, and the closer the frames are to dimesnions and flatness, the better. I agree that water jet or laser cut frames save a lot of work and will likely be more accurate than hand cut ones. Just make sure the cutter doesn't stack the frames on top of one another while cutting to save time - one will be smaller than the other if so from the cutting angle of the beam or jet.

Don't try and scare the newbies away with talk of needing wild precision.

2ft-fan - the advice to read lots about steam models and build some simple stationary engines is very good. Try a few and see if you like the hobby. I also suggest reading any or all of Kozo Hiraoka's books, they are chock full of excellent techniques. Don't worry about them being metric - you can convert the units to inch if you want to build the locos, or build them in metric. Metric is as simple or simpler than inches, and more metric taps dies etc are avaialable in North America than ever before. You don't need metric dials on the machine tools to work in metric, you just convert as you go using a calculator. Stock is also not a problem, for example if Kozo says 3 mm x 6 mm bar, use 1/8 x 1/4" and mill it down a bit. 1 inch =25.4mm just FYI.

good luck whatever you try.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

If I'd have to work even to 0.001" tolerance, I would never have finished a single loco!

No, don't take precision too seriously - if you do, your loco will probably seize up solid as it gets warm!

Use a technology that is "adaptive" to errors instead - Teflon for check valve seats, Viton O-rings for cylinder rings and rod glands, low-cost synthetictic coated steel/bronze insert sleeve bearings for connecting rods, and so on...

The one place where precision is crucial is in the valve gear. Make the pivots and bearings as well as you can, and pay special attention to the curved Stephenson links and the die blocks.

But to work to 0.0001", i.e. wristwatch tolerances, is both impractical and useless.

(Sorry to contradict you Willy, my 0-6-0 runs fine, and I don't even have any measuring tools that can do any better than half a thou... I certainly haven't machined my frame, horn blocks or axle boxes to a tenth, in fact, not even to a thou!)

2ft_fan:
Keep an eye on upcoming issues of Live Steam & ORR, you might want to read about a (non-steam) loco that can be built in 48 workshop hours...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Stock is also not a problem, for example if Kozo says 3 mm x 6 mm bar, use 1/8 x 1/4" and mill it down a bit.</font>

... or, simply adjust the design to accept a slightly different size of stock, this shouldn't pose a problem in most places. However, check and double check any design changes you make, to avoid a nasty surprise further on.

Greetings,
J-E


[This message has been edited by Jan-Eric Nystrom (edited 02-08-2006).]

[pkastagehand]

Lots of good things to consider here in terms of machining and tolerance which I was glad to see. Makes some aspects less daunting. I'm also a beginner working on the Kozo A3 in 3/4" to the foot, 3-1/2" gage.

My consideration for choosing this size was to get something a little larger since I'm not sure I want to mess with working on tiny parts for the smaller gages, combined with not wanting to get so big I couldn't get it out of the basement.

If you want to "play trains" and ride the thing and pull cars many would suggest going no smaller than 1-1/2" to the foot scale (1/8 full size). There is a railroad near me where I can go play trains and crew for others which sometimes includes running the loco (though not steam, yet) and being conductor and/or brakeman.

For me the process of building is more of what I am interested in right now than the running of it. (Which is good because the nearest 3-1/2" gage tracks I know about is Illinois Live Steamers, about 2 or 2-1/2 hours away.)

Size is a big factor for someone who will soon be moving and/or living in dorms or has no permanent shop space yet to store/work on it. As others suggest start smaller, gain the experience, and when you get more established in ability as well as shop space tackle a bigger scale.

My $.02

[This message has been edited by pkastagehand (edited 02-08-2006).]

[GWRdriver]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My consideration for choosing this size was to get something a little larger since I'm not sure I want to mess with working on tiny parts for the smaller gages,</font>

As one works smaller (in scale) the base increment (of say .001") becomes larger relative to the size of the fits. For that reason it's more difficult to work to good fits in smaller scales than in larger scales.

For example, in 1-1/2" scale the press fit between a 3/4"OD axle and its wheel might be around .001". However in Ga1, where the axle might be only 1/4"OD, a .001" press would break the wheel hub. To get a true press fit you would need a press of around .0002" and a miss by only .0001" might be the difference between a broken wheel and a good press fit.

[Bill Shields]

2ft_fan:

Don't worry about these guys geting you spinning around in circles...they do that do me all the time...and I thought I was somewhat immune having been doing this for 30+ years....

Everything that they have said is sage advise, nobody is steering you wrong...but what is better vanilla, chocolate or strawberry ice cream?

My recommendation would be to start on a smaller engine..the primary reason being time and cost.....cost of materials and cost of machinery / tools to build it and transport it.

You can have a whale of a lot of fun with an engine the size of a toaster...if you don't believe me, come out some time and see what it is all about. You can put it in the trunk of virtually any car...you don't live far from NJLS at Liberty Corner where there is a very nice 3/4" track in operation.

Don't get me wrong, I am also building a hernia gauge engine also, but I think that before it is all over with, I will enjoy the smaller engines more...they don't yield the 'WOW' reaction from your friends and neighbors, but they CAN be built in a year or so with little more than a small lathe with a milling attachment...and time.

And last but not least, don't be scared about the precision necessary. Yes, there are areas that need to be as accurate as you can make them...but remember that the guys that originally built steam locos were, like me, not much more than blacksmiths.

One of my favorite quotes comes from Mathias Baldwin, who was "amazed at the accuracy of the work done by a sub-contractor who was boring cylinders for him..the bore was actually WITHIN 1/4" of being true round"...

OK, our engines won't run with such sloppy fits, but just to keep things in perspective, I have to always remind myself..."building a loco not a watch"....

Stop over some time if you want to see what it is all about...we are in DE, not far south of the Bridge...and you can see multiple 3/4", 1" and 1-1/2" engines in various states of (dis)assembly...including a really nice 3/4" engine built on nothing but a lathe (with milling attachment), drill press and a bunch of hand tools....

Look up Morewood's book "building the Raritan"..the engine is now sold by Tanski...a very good 'get started' engine that runs very well and doesn't cost an arm and a leg to put on the track...

Of course, our friend in Finland HAS to work in the larger scales..what he DOESN'T show us is the giant snow plow that he has to put on the front of all of his engines so that he can run them for more than 3 weeks a year when 'green winter' actually hits http://bbs.livesteam.net//tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by Bill Shields (edited 02-08-2006).]

[willy]

Dont shoot the messenger just because he learned it from some one that has different views than you.

[2ft_fan]

Hey guys thanks for the information.. This in no way has made me think that I don't want to do this. If anything it has made me want to do it more. I have access to lathes, mills and drill presses of all sizes (although I think our 54in Harrington might be a little over kill). I also have a few friends that know a lot about machining. I have been volunteering at the New Jersey Museum of Transportation for the past five years working on the real thing. I have helped machine some of the parts so I have an idea of what I'm getting myself into. I'm thinking of asking my friend if he would like to build one with me. The only reason I through the 4-6-0 out was because I want to bring some part of my railroad to life. I have some small locos that I have drawn that would make a good first project after a few tries with smaller stuff. I think that I can do this, maybe not financially at the moment, but that cant stop me from starting. Keep the info and advice coming guys. I'll see about membership in my local live steam group.
Thanks again guys.

Eric Bolton
Superintendent/Owner
ET&S RR Co.

[pockets]

Eric,
With access to that kind of machinery, there's always 3-3/4" scale.....

Didn't I tell you this was a great gang?

Best regards,
Greg B.

[Bill Shields]

Greg:

What...you want to ruin the kid's back before he get to 21? http://bbs.livesteam.net//tongue.gif

[GWRdriver]

Eric,
With respect to your working on the "real thing" . . . . This is good exposure and although the object is to boil water to make steam to make the wheels go round, be advised, that's about where the similarities end. This falls under the "Don't believe everyhting you are told" category.

Each different live steam scale has it's own construction vocabulary, or library of technology (it does you know) which has been developed over as long as 100 years and has been found to make that particular size operate best (or operate at all.) The building vocabulary in Ga1 is vastly different from that of 7.5"ga, for instance. "They did it like that on the bigguns" is not always a reason to do things a certain way because in many areas of live steam construction applying full size practice to live steam models generally doesn't work, or doesn't work well. Generally speaking, as scale goes smaller, models are purposely simplified so the number of parts also goes down and the prototype design becomes increasingly modified to allow for the simplification.

[pockets]

Something you might try, as a relatively inexpensive way to try a scale on 'for size", is to build a piece of rolling stock. Gondolas are always in demand and if you don't care for the scale you built it in, one of the "check book modellers, down at the club will take it off your hands.

When I began exploring #-3/4" scale I did this.( the jump from 7/8n2 was kind of intimidating )I started a box car. It's not finished, yet, but it's far enough along to convince me that I made a good choice.

The guys here have helped me to fill in the gaps in my knowledge (And they are legion).

Read all of the posts in every thread. You'll be amazed at what will apply to you as you travel this path. It may seem disjointed and confusing, now, but the pieces gradually fall into place and you begin to understand. This allows you to ask better questions and the cycle continues.

Best regards,
Greg B.