Pray for Strength

[Bill Shields]

Not for me personally, per se, but for the boiler that I have decided to weld. Been many years, but Jesse goaded me into knocking off the Jack Daniels for a couple of weeks and steady my hand....

After a couple of weeks of practicing, here is the first result:

http://www.netgazers.net/~shields/photos/firedoor.jpg
http://www.netgazers.net/~shields/photos/outer.jpg



[This message has been edited by Bill Shields (edited 12-15-2005).]

[EARS_MCFLY]

Aaaargh! No pitchers came through!!

[Unka Jesse]

Bill, you will have to stick the photos on "Photobucket" (free) and then copy and paste them to the Steaming Bay site. I will send you complete instructions by email

Unka Jesse

[Bill Shields]

Actually, I did....then thinking that the files actually TRANSFERRED, erased them from my FTP site...then, well there is no accounting for fools...

[EARS_MCFLY]

Looks like a good job to me. Are you going to have it X-rayed or just give it a good hydraulic test when it's finished?

Al

[pockets]

Bill,
You lookin' for work? LOL
MIG, TIG, STICK?

Greg B.

[Bill Shields]

X-rayed?....nah...too much trouble. Will pass a good hydro...spent about 3 weeks welding / bending coupons to get my hand back in to be sure it would be OK...

Stick (7018) on both sides, 3 passes each...not going anywhere in my lifetime. My brother in law has been a bit rough on the TIG equipment and I didn't feel like spending $300 to fix it up so that I could use it..besides, the last thing I welded with a TIG machine was a still..brings back too many memories of the Middle East and survival of the thirstiest...

Looking for work? Your eyes must be worse than mine. Nobody in their right mind would hire me to do any welding...

[GWRdriver]

It (the welding) certainly looks good to me but then I'm the world's worst welder (that's part of why I build copper) so my opinion is well, just that, an opinion. Welding could be vastly superior to mine and still be poor welding, that's how bad mine is. That's an interesting firebox wrapper profile, where did that come from?

[Bill Shields]

GWRD:

The wrapper design came out of my head, so it is bound to be a bit 'different'. It parallels the outer wrapper and makes staybolts easy to drill / weld....ease of construction is #2 on my list of priorities.

I will have a picture of that end of the boiler tacked together shortly so you can see where it is headed...

The welding is OK, it is stronger than it looks, so I am not worried.

[GWRdriver]

I'm told (and told and told and told) that I could greatly improve my welding if A) I did more of it (well of course!), and B) get rid of my near 40 year old Airco 225a buzz-box and try more current technology. Unfortunately I've done neither.

[Bill Shields]

Practice DOES make perfect, and in the case of welding, good tools are an absolute necessity. Our Miller TIG is old as the hills, but works well and holds steady current for as long as I can hold my breath...which is all that matters....

[pockets]

Guys,
I've got an ESAB Migmaster 250. I've read and talked to a lot of people who say you can't MIG a boiler, but I've yet to hear why. Can anyone here tell me or is this just another urban legend?

Thanks

Regards,
Greg B.
PS: don't mean to hi-jack the thread.

[This message has been edited by pockets (edited 12-16-2005).]

[Bill Shields]

no problem...I'll just call the TSA on 'ya...

I have never used it, our shops never used it...you should try to get a wire feeder INSIDE a boiler some time....BUT..

MIG welding of boilers is done commercially.

A lot of it is done by robots. Every type of MIG is different and requires separate certification.

I am about as handy with a MIG welder as a cow with a musket....

[Unka Jesse]

Pockets, it seems that someone mentioned a while back that the problem with MIG was lack of good penetration, but I don't know for sure as I have never used a MIG. TIG, yes, have used it quite a bit as well as 7018 electrodes.

Unka Jesse

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

oops, see next entry - those two icons (edit & reply) are so easy to mix up...

J-E

[This message has been edited by Jan-Eric Nystrom (edited 12-17-2005).]

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Indeed - MIG is not good for boilers, due to low penetration.

A steel boiler should be done in several passes, the first preferably TIG (GTAW), the following passes with stick. All stick is also OK, but care must be taken to remove all and any slag between passes. There's more grinding than welding involved...

Here's a webpage by a friend of mine:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/ffa/onni/tk3-veturi/kattila.html

Greetings, J-E




[This message has been edited by Jan-Eric Nystrom (edited 12-17-2005).]

[Bill Shields]

With PROPER techniques, MIG is allowed by the NIB here in the US...

http://www.nationalboard.org/NationalBoard/Articles/Classics/classic5.aspx

Like J-E says, penetration is a concern, and only certain metal / wire combinations are allowed with certain types of MIG control electrics.

Best to leave this to the REAL professionals and stick...well....to stick....

[pockets]

Guys,
I gotta argue, a bit about penetration with Mig. When I was an inspector with the SCCA, we regularly pie-cut roll cage welds for examination. This was a visual process w/50x magnification. Also, in my shop, welds were periodically subject to x-ray and porosity tests. 90% of the welds in my shop were Mig and easily that percentage for home built roll cages.

I will concede that access can be a problem, although so can a stinger and rod. and getting the proper alloy can be an issue. As for Tig, If you can get the torch, both hands and a filler rod in there, there should be room for anything else. I can't fault the quality of a well done Tig weld. You can have a butt ugly stick weld that will be structurally fine. You can also have a beautiful Mig weld that won't hold one of Grannie's sneezes. In the hands of the unskilled, Mig can create some dangerous products.( That's why we pie-cut 'em )That's probably where Mig gets it's reputation.

Best regards,
Greg B.

[tel]

The trouble with MIG is that it is a trrap for the inexperienced - you can make a really good looking weld that ain't ....

In the hands of the experienced, howevewer, it is not a problem

[Bill Shields]

Pockets:

I agree with what you say for SCCA and whoever, but ASME boiler codes are a bit more stringent, believe it or not. They will only allow certain power supply types with certain wire / base metal combinations..

[pockets]

Boy, Guys, this is getting to be a major PITA. Believe it or not, as big as this thing is, cost IS a factor. I can build this critter, a few pieces at a time and not get hurt too bad. Coming off a $7k nut for a custom boiler just ain't in the cards.

I have built safe, reliable pressure vessels before. I am a competent weldor and my welds have passed any number of tests. The most important of which is, If I'm not 1000% sure, my grand daughter isn't getting neer it.

Bill, you got a link to those codes?

I'm probably one of the most anally retentive safety freaks you gentlemen know.
This boiler has to hydro at 250-300psi to operate at 100-120psi. If it werent for the heat, you could build it with adhesives! And some adhesives are approaching our range.

I know that I'm preaching to the choir, but this regulation crap is beginning to wear on me. Our little tea kettles are so over-engineered as to be laughable in an industrial setting. If you don't think so, cut open a SCUBA tank. They hydro to 5000psi!

I'll probably stick the d%#@$& thing to placate potential inspectors...

Pardon my rant.
Best regards,
Greg B.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I'll probably stick the d%#@$& thing to placate potential inspectors...
</font>

... Er, just where? And just how does that placate? http://bbs.livesteam.net//biggrin.gif

Seriously, if you aren't 100 % sure of the MIG process, you'd better use a process you're comfortable with. Indeed, a 3x hydro will tell you a lot, but not necessarily everything... metals behave strangely sometimes. My last boiler building attempt failed due to "intergranular penetration of silver solder"...

Greetings, J-E

[This message has been edited by Jan-Eric Nystrom (edited 12-19-2005).]

[pockets]

Jan-Eric,
I am quite comfortable in my abilities with Mig. What I am not is a metalurgist or knowledgable of the codes. That's why I asked Bill about a link.

I'm saving up to replace my mill, I'd really like to avoid buying another welder...

What caused the S/S penetration, did the copper get too hot?

Best regards,
Greg B.

[Bill Shields]

Greg:

Just take a look a the whitepaper from the NIBB, it explains rather well the concerns, that have been around for years. ASME codes are not linked in a manner easy to sort out, because there are literally dozens of GMAW welding definitions.

Lack of penetration, thermal cycling and fatigue are the concerns. Is your MIG boiler likely to fail catastrophically....no. Develop cracks and leak....possibly.

Hey, I was nervous about not using 6010 as a root rod before using 7018 as a cap...and I still am a bit nervous about it, but with 6 passes holding things down, it should be OK....so, yes I agree with being retentive.

I am with you $6K to build a boiler is a bit over the top, but the guys that do this are very god...and believe me, DON'T use MIG (sorry).....

[pockets]

NIBB? I'll Google that, Bill, and see what happens. Prob'ly something I should know.

I wonder how many perfectly safe boilers have been built, in blissful ignorance, just by following the instructions in the magazines. LOL

Bill, what are you using for base material? A106?

Thanks, gang
Greg B.

[This message has been edited by pockets (edited 12-19-2005).]

[Bill Shields]

Actually, A285

AND...there are a LOT of things that I have / will do in my lifetime that I will NEVER recommend to any one else as something they should do.

If someone has MIG'd a boiler and it is working OK and they are having no problems with it, who is anyone to argue? TECHNICALLY, our small boilers do NOT need ASME code welding / inspections, so there is a lot of 'variation' possible...

HOWEVER, if someone ASKS...I am usually going to give them the 'straight and narrow' of what I know, from personal / industrial experience to be safe long-term.

As I mentioned to Jesse just a while ago...when he asked why the firebox was so heavy...first of all, commercial tube rollers START at 1/2 tubesheet thickness...second..I don't want to have to reboiler any of my engines when I am 85....

[This message has been edited by Bill Shields (edited 12-19-2005).]

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
What caused the S/S penetration, did the copper get too hot?
</font>

Copper-nickel is a wonderful material, eminently cold- and hot-formable, but if there is any molten silver solder in contact with it, CuNi will tear as easily as wet cardboard! The molten silver will penetrate where there is even the slightest stress between CuNi grain boundaries. Total annealing and absolutely no thermally induced stress during soldering is the only prevention.

At lower temperatures, where s/s is not liquid, cracking doesn't happen.

Greetings,
J-E

[pockets]

Yes, Dear..,er, Bill..,er, Sir.....LOL
Wasn't meaning to be contentious, just frustrated.

Jan-Eric, that sounds like something to stay away from, for boilers. Sounds darned near as sensitive as ol' Bill.

Best regards to both of you,
Greg B.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">that sounds like something to stay away from, for boilers. </font>

The cracking happened in a CuNi boiler shell that I had straightened out into a firebox side, and thus induced stress in. Had I but known, I'd annealed everything before soldering...

My two first boilers were also CuNi, but only in tubular form. There was no stress in the metal, either thermal or from forming, so they are quite OK, passed 2.5x hydro with no problems.

Greetings,
J-E

[Bill Shields]

Greg:

Believe me, I know where you are coming from and understand exactly the position you, and many are in....and try to be as helpful as possible and safe as possible....and NO I am not sensitive...far from it. I don't mean to come across that way, but if I think that someone may be headed in an improper direction, friend or not...I really want to get an idea across. I am an engineer, and if you ask my wife, she will agree that 'sensitive communications' is not my strong point..

I really, honestly, try to avoid recommending something to someone that I wouldn't do myself...that is how I get up in the morning and look myself in the mirror.

It took a LOT of soul searching before I decided to do my boiler with 7018 alone...but I just COULDN'T get my hand back into 6010..and like you, don't have $7K to dump on a boiler....so after burning 50# of rod and bending 20 coupons, felt that I was ready to jump back in...I learned on tig & stick, inspected tig & stick, rebuilt BIG boilers and other unfired pressure vessels with tig & stick and I am comfortable with tig & stick...so guess what I will recommend if somebody asks?

For 20 years, it was my job and legal liabilty. Today, it is moral obligation..the old brain says.."Don't suggest anything to anybody that will get them killed'. Grinding jaws on a lathe chuck is one thing, welding on a boiler is another..

Since I am so out-of-date, I called my local MIG expert at the local welding supply....he hemmed and hawed around a bit, and finally offered that...

They can get, but don't stock and have not sold any of a 0.045 diameter wire, coded HR, that is equivalent of AWS 7018 - requires 200 amp machine to drive. He said that a 6010 root pass still should be run...and he PERSONALLY doesn't know, nor has he trained (they run a school here in little old Delaware) anyone to be certified on pressure vessels on MIG. Boiler manufacturers tend to be old-fashioned and stick with what they know...and, he offered, 'have you ever tried to get a MIG gun inside a boiler?'. I assured him that our boilers were IMPOSSIBLE to get a MIG gun inside...then explained...

Please....contact your local supplier..or the manufacturer of your machine..see what they have to offer in the way of suggestions for what you are considering....by all means, DON'T take only my word for it.

EXPERT....

EX -&gt; Has been
SPERT -&gt; little drip under pressure

Want to 'discuss' round vs. square vs. no key w/loctite on drivers? That is a vanilla, chocolate or strawberry discussion what we can have fun with..nobody gets hurt, everyone learns.



[This message has been edited by Bill Shields (edited 12-19-2005).]

[Bill Shields]

J-E:

What diameter fire tubes in that boiler on your friend's site? What diameter staybolts?

Gotta love girder stays...

[pockets]

Bill, I can do nothing but respect your position.

As for talking to someone locally...I don't "know" anyone except at the place I retired from and I inspected their work!

I have been told about a man, down in Fort Meyers. I think his name is Bob Dean. I may try to talk to him.

I trained on stick and Mig. I've played with Tig enough to know that I have a long way to go.

I may just do all the Pimp work and hire the burning done. I read, on one of the boards, about someone doing that.

Thanks for "sticking" with me, through this,
Greg B.

[Bill Shields]

That was me....jobbing the welding out...until my 'I will help you' neighbor all of a sudden is too busy....so Jesse goaded me into laying off the Jack and getting on the stick...literally..

Anyway, it is not a bad way to go...just be SURE that you prep the welding the way HE (SHE?) wants it done. My neighbor wouldn't have any of my 'prepping' he had to do it all...should have told me something right then and there..

Heck, you don't have to know anyone, just call the manufacturer of your MIG gun. All these places have resident welding staff that can weld anything except the crack of dawn, a broken heart, and a plumber's butt...and are happy to answer questions, since that is what they are paid to do. I called my gas supplier, asked for the MIG expert and had a very informative chat....and there was no mistaking the hesitation in his voice.

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">What diameter fire tubes in that boiler on your friend's site? What diameter staybolts?
</font>

IIRC, the tubes are 5/8", the bolts 3/8" or so.

Greetings, J-E