Can a steam locomotive be competitive viable alternative?

[eletias]

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[This message has been edited by eletias (edited 12-03-2005).]

[eletias]

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[This message has been edited by eletias (edited 12-03-2005).]

[timz1999]

I think you forget about the one thing that did the steam engine is was the maintenance to keep it going. I think unless you did some thing along the lines of a steam turban powering a generator and threw in something like nuclear energy or it burned some type of bio fuel maybe even hydrogen?
it might work. I like the idea of hydrogen because when burned a byproduct is water! could you imagine the big bang you would get if that derailed http://bbs.livesteam.net//eek.gif



[This message has been edited by timz1999 (edited 11-26-2005).]

[Bill Shields]

forget turbines...they like to run hard under constant load.

thermal cycling caused by changing loads eat them alive....

did that for a living in the oil industry for 10 years...LAST thing in the world you want on a loco...

[PTSideshow]

In 1946 typical class I Railroad Steam Diesel
operating expenses annual.

Steam Gross Ton Miles Cost
Freight 6,911,249 US $7,345,469
Passenger car/miles 11,865,063 US $2,077,414
Switching Hours 69,516hours US$14.2635/hour

Diesel Gross Ton Miles Cost
Freight 6,911,249 US $4,151,485
Passenger car/miles 11,865,063 US $1,192,464
Switching hours 69,516hours US$9.8456/hour

This is from Kents Mechcanical Engineers Handbook 12 editions published in the mid 60's.

In this issue of Farm Show magazine they have a steamGen 10kw generator set for sale $25,000 plus the guy will come and do the plumbing on site $50.00/hour (don't know if he's a pipefitter or plumber or if he follows code.) The system consits of a Beckman boatshop 150 psig boiler a Semple compound steam engine, and engine-driven high pressure pump(don't know if it is a seperate gas engine driven pump or the steam engine driven. it burns wood, straw/hay bale or other crop residue. The down side according to the story is the boiler requires constant attention. Feeding the fire and operating the boiler. (Keeping the water level high enough to make sure it doesn't make the news as explosion in the neighborhood.) Automatic controls on the boiler would triple the cost?
"SteamGen generators require 100 per cent supervision, but operating a boiler is not rocket science,"Gordon says " your teenage sson can operate the boiler while you operate the shop equipment." I have a 10kw gas powered generator That only cost under $2,000 when it was bought. It sure did come in handy when we had that black out a couple of years ago. and only had to add gas to it and check the oil.

That must be why more states and localities are requiring inspections and licensing of equipment and operators. After the accident in Ohio a couple of years ago that killed all those people.
Even dry cleaning shops have licensed people running the boilers if they have a pressure vessel that is housing steam.
Flash boiler's don't require a license because its water in steam out at the rated use.
Even today no matter what kind of boiler you use you have feed water considerations to take into account. (big bucks for testing supplies and the chemicals to add to the boiler.) Depending on what comes out of the mud ring blow downs you could be require to have a hazardous waste site license. Than there are the inspectors, city, county, state
and or insurance inspectors. A lot more locals are no requiring hobby boilers of what ever kind or size to be inspected. Some time each year or use. (costs depends on the licensing agency need for money.) Also the license for the site for each boiler.Than there is a pressure vessel or air tank inspection/license. Not counting occupancy,plumbing, electrical, elevator inspections/ licenses. This doesn't touch on the EPA,air quailty, smoke inspector's violation's (Tickets/fines locally last one I got was $500.00) keep the cities coffers filled. As a side note if you throw a shovel full of rock salt in a coal fire it will turn the smoke white. they don't give ticets for white smoke. only the black. due to it based on density on the ringleman chart. In Detroit they gave tickets for smoke to the railroads. in the good old days.

I hold a Detroit 1st class engineers license to operate, manage, and maintain Steam boilers, Engines and Turbines of any pressure or horsepower. 28 issues on the license I worked for the Detroit Board of Education for 31 years. As building engineer, Chief Engineer, and Facility Manager. They just stopped using coal fired boilers in the last 5 or so years. due to the Feds and the threat f a millon dollars a day fine for pollution.
last coal fired plant I had, was two locomotive firetube boilers 2 1/2" tubes with hopper fed underfeed stokers, electric feed pumps and a 20 horsepower ABC/Troy type steam engine turning the building blower.
The coal was so bad with so much fines we called it Kentucky Topsoil (only because it came to our coal yard from a mine in Kentucky. One ton in 1/2 ton of ash and klinker out. This was double shovel the coal from the coal bin into a wheel barrow and then wheel it out to the firing floor. Then shovel it into the hopper. Open the ash pit doors and shovel the ash out with a tweleve foot handle on the shovel wheel it outside and dump it. By the way the ash and clinkers are considered hazardous/toxic waste now.
After all this typing I have done, the bottom line is still the same reasons that steam engines went bye in the first place. The laws of thermal dynamics still haven't changed in all these years. btu in, btu out, convert to mechical motion to propel something along. take your pick of prime movers, sources of steam generators. ITS the MONEY and will always be the same.

Cost New
Cost to Run
Cost to keep Running
Cost for the Operators
Equipment Costs over its Life


[This message has been edited by PTSideshow (edited 11-26-2005).]

[PTSideshow]

got to love google http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/ult.html is the page with all the info on ACE 3000 and ACE 6000
modern steam locomotives. tells the story and what happened to it. also google ACE 3000 Steam locomotive for more links. The following link is to a web ring on steam locomotives and a site devoted to modern locomotive design. http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/index.html

[This message has been edited by PTSideshow (edited 11-26-2005).]

[This message has been edited by PTSideshow (edited 11-26-2005).]

[Jan-Eric Nystrom]

Forget the dream of mainline steam!

The infrastructure for it was dismantled when diesels & electrics took over. There are no water towers, coaling stations, etc. any more. Who would even consider re-buiding all that? You've got a chicken & egg situation here.

Short nostalgia trips (where logistics aren't a problem) is another thing, of course.

Greetings,
J-E

[eletias]

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[This message has been edited by eletias (edited 12-03-2005).]

[andypullen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by eletias:
Why would you need water towers, coaling stations, etc. to have a modern steam locomotive run the line?

A boiler can be designed to burn any or number of feuls, and a modern steam locomotive would have a condenser to reclaim the water so where is the need for this info structure?

Just because my grand father turned a crank to start his Henery Ford auto, does not mean my new car has to have crank to start it, ever hear of a starter?

I think it is little tunnel vission, to think steam locomotives have reproduce same problems, as if hundred years of technology has not solved a few problems. </font>

WHY WOULD YOU NEED WATER???? What kind of question is that? A steam locomotive will go nowhere without water! Where do you think the steam comes from? No water in a steam boiler is a recipe for a disaster.

WAKE UP!! I like what somebody posted on your other posting about wacky tobaccie....

Andy Pullen

[eletias]

In.

[This message has been edited by eletias (edited 12-03-2005).]

[Phill]

This may be worth a read!!!

http://www.a1steam.com/

[Bill Shields]

If I am going to give $$$ to somebody (throw it away), it might as well go to a good cause

www.savetoby.com (http://www.savetoby.com)

[Phill]

What better cause indeed, but consider the implications..
A totaly new, not mothballed, rebuilt or restored, magnificent steam locomotive! Built to the exacting standards required for mainline work! To run without the constant breakdowns that seem to plague the restored locos! Could this be the first of many, or am I but a dreamer!!

[pockets]

Phill, even some of the "Preservation Societies" over there have produced new locomotives. Read about it in Model Engineer a few years ago. Sounds like fun, but can you see getting it past the beaurocrats (Clover, get your bean counters to pay the subscription and get the Spell Check working) in the FRA?

Regards,
Greg

[Phill]

They keep on allowing us to run the old girls on the main line, in and among the high speed stuff, even though there has been some severe disruption when one has conked out! But heres a thing.. even if you have absolutely no interest in Steam traction, you stop and look when one goes by!! The beauro's love em too, so I think were in with a shout. First chance I get I will be up there takin some pics, but like I said, I,m a bit of a dreamer!!

[pockets]

Phill, were it not for dreams and fantasies of dim memories, we would, none of us, be here. There is no rational reason for a person to dedicate a large portion of his life and whatever of his fortune he can spare to the replication, in miniature, of something as archaic as the reciprocating steam engine.

I hate it when I wax philosophic...I may weep.

Best regards,
Greg B.

[Phill]

weep away, then boil your teers to make more st...., I think this is getting out of hand!!!

[Alan Stepney]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Phill:
This may be worth a read!!!

http://www.a1steam.com/

</font>

Over here, we have many preserved railways and often, a shortage of motive power.
Whilst some still have engines that need or are, being restored, the growth of traffic, some lines being extended, and even some more being preserved, means that this shortage will continue.

Hence there are several efforts to get more steam up and running.

Of the three major efforts I am aware of, (including the A1 project) all seem to be making steady progress. Also, all appear to be getting the finance they need.

Time will tell if they are succesful or not.

[pockets]

Phill, I intend to do just that. The project that you gentlemen have been helping me with is an awsome, for me, undertaking. I am 56 years old and retired on medical disability. I have the help of some strong and willing friends who view this as a learning experience. The whole design, casting, machining...You know the drill. With luck and the forbearance of whomever's in charge, we will bring it to fruition.

Throughout my life I have had the priveledge of working with some of the very best in their chosen fields. Again, in this hobby, I find myself in that caliber of company.

My daddy always said that I couldn't let a sleeping dog lie...Let's build a lot more reciprocating steam.

My best regards,
Greg B.
PS: Jesse, I'd really like to see waht you could do with a D&RG T12, in 2-1/2" scale. I'd even buy the book!

[Unka Jesse]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by pockets:

My best regards,
Greg B.
PS: Jesse, I'd really like to see waht you could do with a D&RG T12, in 2-1/2" scale. I'd even buy the book!</font>

Fugidaboudit Greg. I done swore off of building lokemotives after I built the fifth one (Newbie Project). It took me a while to figure out that I couldn't run but one at a time, so why have more than one??

Unka Jesse

[pockets]

Well, Jesse, The rationale for the puppy y'all are helpin' with is that it's for the grand daughter to remember "Papa" by. LOL

Best regards,
Greg B.

[Bill Shields]

Why have more than one?

Are you talking about beer or locos?

Ignoring the beer question for right now, let's see...north of me is 3-1/2, 4-3/4 and 7-1/4.

South of me is....7-1/2, 7-1/2 and 7-1/2...with the occasional 4-3/4 thrown in by default here and there.

Methinks it is a conspiracy to keep us Yankees north of the Mason-Dixon line.

HOWEVER, SOME of us Yankees CAN read a ruler and figure out how to make one of those MONSTER 7-1/2 engines as compared to the puny 7-1/4's that we run north of the line...
So, look out...when I finish my 7-1/4, will do a 7-1/2 and get the driver from the old-age home to run me down your way for a weekend.

[Unka Jesse]

Well Bill, you just come right on down and we will roll out the Southern Redneck Hospitality to make you feel right at home. Heck, we even let Bill Bowser from Cincinnatti come down and play at the last spring MSLS meet.

Unka Jesse

[pockets]

Naw, Bill, it's just you Easterners who insist on being more correct ( though not truely correct) than the rest of us. I'm from Michigan and they even let me in after what the 1st and 3rd Michigan did to 'em at Gettysburg. I didn't quibble about the gauge, I'm building a BIG engine to take advantage of it! LOL

The Manson/Nixon line has become fairly fluid. You can't get across Saginaw without being fairly fluent in y'all and unless you are in the swamps, you'll hardly ever hear a Southern accent in Florida...Well, maybe up along the Alabama and Georgia lines.

My mother, at 85 years, whose family is in Iowa via Missouri and Georgia, claims that she was 16 before she learned that damned yankee was two words.

Put an axle stretcher on one of those engines and c'mon down!

Best regards
Greg (of confused geneology) B.